Buzz responsible for what we have become?

[Gato78]

A couple of things come to mind about Buzz while watching tonight's game.

1. Talent level is woeful. Did he leave because he didn't want to deal with what he knew was a talent drop off?
2. What is the real story about Jameel McKay? I don't think we ever got the real story. My guess is he had some grade manipulation to get into MU and had to go. He obtained a ridiculous number of credits in a short time. How can anyone think he would need to redshirt with the lack of scoring and athleticism? Was Buzz that clueless? Doubtful.
3. We had more talent last year and did no better than this year. What the hell was going on last year?

I give this team credit. Doing everything they can but each player is somehow limited. Carlino can't dribble and guard; Derrick cannot score etc etc. No one on this team is a well rounded player. That is on Buzz either due to recruiting errors or development errors. Derrick and Juan are playing like dogs who have been beat too much, spend half their life just covering up. I think that is entirely on Buzz. The proof is Derrick on the line--made fts in high school at a good rate. Now, he is afraid of the line, shooting less than 50%. What the hell happened?

[79warrior]

A couple of things come to mind about Buzz while watching tonight's game.

1. Talent level is woeful. Did he leave because he didn't want to deal with what he knew was a talent drop off?
2. What is the real story about Jameel McKay? I don't think we ever got the real story. My guess is he had some grade manipulation to get into MU and had to go. He obtained a ridiculous number of credits in a short time. How can anyone think he would need to redshirt with the lack of scoring and athleticism? Was Buzz that clueless? Doubtful.
3. We had more talent last year and did no better than this year. What the hell was going on last year?

I give this team credit. Doing everything they can but each player is somehow limited. Carlino can't dribble and guard; Derrick cannot score etc etc. No one on this team is a well rounded player. That is on Buzz either due to recruiting errors or development errors. Derrick and Juan are playing like dogs who have been beat too much, spend half their life just covering up. I think that is entirely on Buzz. The proof is Derrick on the line--made fts in high school at a good rate. Now, he is afraid of the line, shooting less than 50%. What the hell happened?

Legit points. We will be in a situation with no point guard, very little returning scoring and plenty of inexperience. I think Duane Wilson will be good, Sandy Cohen has lots of potential and Fisher will be fine. JJJ, well not sold on him. I have no idea how how ended up so highly rated coming out of HS. Unless Wojo lines up some Juco's, next year will be very similar to this year.

[Gato78]

JJJ has plenty of talent. He needed to be coached last year. He is playing like a frosh. Right now, if you go player to player, it seems like the last two years were a complete waste and they are all trying to figure it out--except Carlino, who wasn't here. Every guy on the roster is one or years away from where they should be. Juan Anderson has plenty of ability and hustle. What happened to his development?

[Nukem2]

Obviously, Buzz ( and MU ) was a victim of Murphy's Law. He could only go so far as what was left to him and his Juco connections. Was not a developer of talent. Rather, a reaper of available talent. We as MU reaped those benefits. Unfortunately, those benefits were not renewable given the restraints of the new administration under Fr. P and Larry W. we move on. I believe Wojo will do fine from what we ave seen. Frustrating right now, but the future looks good. We thank Buzz, but we move on

[TheSultan]

Mentioned this on Scoop, but recruiting misses in successive years with Jamail Jones, TJ Taylor and Jamal Ferguson left the team woefully short in the 2/3 positions. Then Blue leaves early, and Mayo is a complete f*ck up, and you are left depending on guys that are talented on paper but can't perform yet on the floor.

So yeah Buzz the GM is who I think is to blame primarily for last year and this year.

[IrwinFletcher]

If you believe that Buzz was a detriment to the development of some of these guys (and it is hard to argue with you on that point) I am worried that Wojo is doing the same to JJJ. Kid has some talent and it is apparent but seems Wojo has picked him out as the guy he is going to use to make a point. In turn , he will be run off when in fact there is talent there to be found.

Just so frustrated right now on how this program has fallen so quick and so hard.

[Markedman]

I thought we had the real story on McKay.....Buzz discussed redshirting with him and he freaked out and quit......Hasn't IWB confirmed that version of events?

[TheSultan]

If you believe that Buzz was a detriment to the development of some of these guys (and it is hard to argue with you on that point) I am worried that Wojo is doing the same to JJJ. Kid has some talent and it is apparent but seems Wojo has picked him out as the guy he is going to use to make a point. In turn , he will be run off when in fact there is talent there to be found.


I'm not sure about that. Wojo looks to be the second coach who can't get to him. I think you are probably looking at a guy who isn't very coachable.

[Markedman]

JJ played in a very unstructured high school system from the games I recall watching......some kids can make the adjustment and some don't.

Seems like a nice kid but not fundamentally sound IMO.

We used to have tough wing players...... guys that guarded and took it to the rim hard and weren't afraid of contact.....JJ is not that guy...at least not yet.

[TheSultan]

JJJ followed up his highlight dunk with a undisciplined, one on four turnover. Wojo was rightfully pissed. Does some good stuff. Does a lot of bad stuff.

[CaribouJim]

JJJ has the make up to be a very good player. I still think he has a ton of upside. Earl Tatum played on the freshman team...Bernard Toone was lost much of the time his first two years...Chris Crawford seemingly walked every time he got the ball his freshman year...Jimmy B. looked overwhelmed and over matched and downright slow when he got to MU and that was with a JUCO year under his belt. All these guys went on to play in the NBA. To give up on JJJ now is insane IMO.

I can't imagine that basketball was fun last year for the guys. I contend that Buzz coached last year like an insecure CEO for a company that just went public or made a big acquisition. Chasing those quarterly #'s. Innovation takes a hit and he played for the here and now and for that very possesion, that very game. That is not how you build a team for March. Players looking over their shoulders and I bet they were stressed out as hell.

I hope Wojo hangs in there with these guys. I'm not a fan of the "Cull the Herd" mentality until "Wojo gets his guys" so he can get guys for his "system". I hate that term by the way. I think Wojo is going to be a very good coach and good coaches readily adapt to the situation. Biggest example is how he went to the zone fairly early in the season. He didn't stubbornly stick to man-to-man just because they always did. Heck, maybe even Coach K learned from him this year when Duke went zone after getting waxed a couple game in a row.

Wojo, like his younger players, is going to be in a learning mode this season. Don't stress themselves to death - so long as everyone is accountable to each other and work on their invidual games and start having fun the wins will come. The cavalry will be here next year. I see this year much like the year before Wade and Diener's arrival - you started to see incremental improvement and they even had some nice wins along the way while laying the foundation for next year.

I'm tired of the transfers and I really will be bummed if JJJ ends up transferring.

[IrwinFletcher]

JJJ followed up his highlight dunk with a undisciplined, one on four turnover. Wojo was rightfully pissed. Does some good stuff. Does a lot of bad stuff.

My problem with that sequence was at the end of the dunk. Here is a kid who was basically punished for not working hard in practice and doing what is needed to be done for the team. He throws down a hellacious dunk, and stands there screaming as the ball gets inbounded.

For god's sake, are you that full of yourself after getting your hands slapped with a yard stick that you have to bring attention to yourself after a great play?

Make the play, put your head down and sprint back to play defense!

(Full disclosure - I am a 49 year old white suburban male who doesn't get a lot of this "me" culture)

[TheSultan]

JJJ has the make up to be a very good player. I still think he has a ton of upside. Earl Tatum played on the freshman team...Bernard Toone was lost much of the time his first two years...Chris Crawford seemingly walked every time he got the ball his freshman year...Jimmy B. looked overwhelmed and over matched and downright slow when he got to MU and that was with a JUCO year under his belt. All these guys went on to play in the NBA. To give up on JJJ now is insane IMO.

I can't imagine that basketball was fun last year for the guys. I contend that Buzz coached last year like an insecure CEO for a company that just went public or made a big acquisition. Chasing those quarterly #'s. Innovation takes a hit and he played for the here and now and for that very possesion, that very game. That is not how you build a team for March. Players looking over their shoulders and I bet they were stressed out as hell.

I hope Wojo hangs in there with these guys. I'm not a fan of the "Cull the Herd" mentality until "Wojo gets his guys" so he can get guys for his "system". I hate that term by the way. I think Wojo is going to be a very good coach and good coaches readily adapt to the situation. Biggest example is how he went to the zone fairly early in the season. He didn't stubbornly stick to man-to-man just because they always did. Heck, maybe even Coach K learned from him this year when Duke went zone after getting waxed a couple game in a row.

Wojo, like his younger players, is going to be in a learning mode this season. Don't stress themselves to death - so long as everyone is accountable to each other and work on their invidual games and start having fun the wins will come. The cavalry will be here next year. I see this year much like the year before Wade and Diener's arrival - you started to see incremental improvement and they even had some nice wins along the way while laying the foundation for next year.

I'm tired of the transfers and I really will be bummed if JJJ ends up transferring.


I want him here if he buys is. I don't want JJJ around for the sake of him being around though. If he doesn't buy in, there is really no reason for him to be here.

[WindyCityGoldenEagle]

Irwin- the ball was far from being inbounded. I believe the ball got flushed through the net and went towards the ft line. The inbounder didn't even have the ball when he was celebrating. Also the team was dead at that point and jj just posterized the best shot blocker in the country- given this and that there was no threat of a fast break, I loved the celebration and thought it fired up the team as well.

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

Bringing it back to Buzz, it would have been real interesting to see what perception would have been of Hamas a coach given that last year we whiffed on all post season tournaments, and this year wasn't going to be good even if he stayed, so two bad years in a row it would have been interesting to see if there would be rumblings out letting him go or not...obviously there is no way to know now.

With that said I think the future of the program lies with the next two years, if Wojo can make the tournament the next two season I think this year and last year will be forgotten by many and it will be a thing of the past... If we continue to miss the tournament and we can't capitalize on a recruit like Henry Ellenson then I think things could get ugly as we'd have a stretch of being irrelevant which is never good. No reason to panic yet, these last two years have been tough, but if next year doesn't improve I'll start getting nervous...

[MUWhistler]

My problem with that sequence was at the end of the dunk. Here is a kid who was basically punished for not working hard in practice and doing what is needed to be done for the team. He throws down a hellacious dunk, and stands there screaming as the ball gets inbounded.

For god's sake, are you that full of yourself after getting your hands slapped with a yard stick that you have to bring attention to yourself after a great play?

Make the play, put your head down and sprint back to play defense!

(Full disclosure - I am a 49 year old white suburban male who doesn't get a lot of this "me" culture)

I had the same reaction when he made the dunk.

Every time Barry Sanders scored a touchdown, he handed the ball to the ref and went back to the sideline. Wish some of that mentality would creep back into the culture.

[MayorBeluga]

I've been saying all along that Buzz hs a history of running when things get tough. He ran from New Orleans and Marquette. Yes, he can justify each individually. But there is a pattern.

He was running away from something, not to something.

[IrwinFletcher]

The thing is with Buzz still being here, this team would have been different. Taylor would have been gone for sure. Anyone else?

We would also have Hill and Paige and maybe one other. More talent but a nasty hangover from previous season of on/off the court crap.

[zklup54]

I think JJJ is going to be a player for this team. Honestly I have felt more comfortable with him on the floor going to the basket the past few games over Duane. The biggest thing is they are so inexperienced. Wojo has mentioned at his press conferences over and over again. They are young and have basically lost a year of experience under Buzz last year. They are in every single game and that is a lot better than what we saw last year. I think we are alike 7-0-1 against the spread as an underdog this year so it is not like we aren't in games. The bigger question I have is does Fischer have any mid- range jump shot? I thought he had one. I'd like to see him take some more shots. I think this team is going to continue to fight and honestly that is all we can ask for and some of these games will turn around in our favor.

[TheSultan]

Irwin- the ball was far from being inbounded. I believe the ball got flushed through the net and went towards the ft line. The inbounder didn't even have the ball when he was celebrating. Also the team was dead at that point and jj just posterized the best shot blocker in the country- given this and that there was no threat of a fast break, I loved the celebration and thought it fired up the team as well.


Fired them up so much that they went -3 over the next 90 seconds.

[TheSultan]

I had the same reaction when he made the dunk.

Every time Barry Sanders scored a touchdown, he handed the ball to the ref and went back to the sideline. Wish some of that mentality would creep back into the culture.


I'm a 47 year old white guy from a small town...and that stuff doesn't bother me in the least. Sports are fun. He's having fun. It is hardly and indictment on our culture.

[Nukem2]

I'm a 47 year old white guy from a small town...and that stuff doesn't bother me in the least. Sports are fun. He's having fun. It is hardly and indictment on our culture.
Agree. The real problem is that a lot of these kids get so caught up in their celebrations that they hurt their teams on the next few plays. Need focus.

[TheSultan]

Agree. The real problem is that a lot of these kids get so caught up in their celebrations that they hurt their teams on the next few plays. Need focus.

I agree with that. I just don't mind the celebrations.

[MayorBeluga]

i think it was TC's last year. MU was playing at Providence and they were leading most if the game. At least twice PC had a dunk and the players were celebrating. MU quickly inbounded, went down court and scored. The look on the Friar player's face was priceless as he realized what happened. Good times...

[Nukem2]

I agree with that. I just don't mind the celebrations.I guess we agreed to agree... ;)

[dw3dw3dw3]

Celebration was fine, next play wasn't. He thought he earned a heat-check opportunity for 1 bucket by going 1 on 4. Just bad basketball. St Johns also plays bad basketball. They had enough talent to beat us by 40. They aren't going anywhere.

[MU/Panther]

I had the same reaction when he made the dunk.

Every time Barry Sanders scored a touchdown, he handed the ball to the ref and went back to the sideline. Wish some of that mentality would creep back into the culture.

Not the same.

[21rooster]

In terms of the original question, yes...I put this season squarely on Buzz, in terms of player selection and inability/unwillingness to develop players (particularly) last year. Buzz knew what he was leaving behind when he "upgraded" to VT.

In terms of where we are now, I guess I came away from last night with a more optimistic view of the team's current status. We've held serve at this point in conference, winning both of our home games and having a chance to win every one of our road games. As mentioned by another poster, our record versus the spread is very good. I understand that many people (including me) don't like moral victories, but given the make-up of this team, those results are extremely encouraging. Think about it...we had a chance to win last night, on a night when three of our eight players combined for two points in 64 minutes...and two of those guys are replaced next year. We had a chance at the end at Georgetown, where even Nova got blown out. Yes, turnovers resulted in very disappointing finishes at DePaul and Xavier, but the team showed in can win if it can learn discipline...something that wasn't taught last season...and something clearly being emphasized by Wojo. If we can play this well with eight guys who are square pegs trying to fit in round holes, I am extremely encouraged to see what happens when we get more disciplined players who fit with Wojo's plan. I'm not giving up on this year's team...we're still net zero on Big East road wins and home losses...but I feel like this season and last are clearly trough seasons where we have to appreciate the progress.

[IWB]

Getting caught up, here are a few comments.....



1. Talent level is woeful. Did he leave because he didn't want to deal with what he knew was a talent drop off? I think that is a big part of it.
2. What is the real story about Jameel McKay? I don't think we ever got the real story. My guess is he had some grade manipulation to get into MU and had to go. He obtained a ridiculous number of credits in a short time. How can anyone think he would need to redshirt with the lack of scoring and athleticism? Was Buzz that clueless? Doubtful.
It was not a short time period like Crowder. McKay committed early for a Juco and had more than a year to do it. A lot of work yes, but enough time. It was tougher because Larry wouldn't allow online courses, even though they were allowed for guys like Vander & DJO. High school kids are still using them to improve grades, need to do what you can, your classroom grades aren't everything so your GPA isn't always set in Stone.
3. We had more talent last year and did no better than this year. What the hell was going on last year? Good question, no clue.

I give this team credit. Doing everything they can but each player is somehow limited. Carlino can't dribble and guard; Derrick cannot score etc etc.
Carlino wasn't a Buzz recruit, he was a Wojo recruit. Derrick wasn't a big scorer in high school either, but he was a big physical guard which was a need in the old Big East with the old guard play rules. Now you can't touch a guy on the perimeter or its a foul, 5 years ago guards were getting abused at the top and Derrick fit that mold of someone who could protect the ball with that type of play.

Derrick and Juan are playing like dogs who have been beat too much, spend half their life just covering up.
Agree on Derrick and Juan, and love the Springsteen reference. Now thanks to you I haven't been able to get that song out of my head since I read your post.

The proof is Derrick on the line--made fts in high school at a good rate. Now, he is afraid of the line, shooting less than 50%. What the hell happened?
On Derrick's free throws - same as John Harris. John Harris was an 88% free throw shooter in high school, was a joke at MU. Does it get in guys' heads? I don't know.


I thought we had the real story on McKay.....Buzz discussed redshirting with him and he freaked out and quit......Hasn't IWB confirmed that version of events?

Mark - That is not accurate. There were three parts to his decision, besides outside influences. Here is what happened.
Part 1: Buzz held a clinic for high school & college coaches. Part of that clinic was an actual MU practice. After the practice Buzz held a Q&A. Some of the players took seats in the bleachers and stayed. During the Q&A one of the questions was 'How do you know when it is best for someone to redshirt?' Buzz answered that there are different circumstances, and said, "Jameel McKay would be a perfect example. A year off would help him gain some much needed body mass and also, coming from a Juco, the extra year would almost assure he graduates with a degree." McKay was one of the players in the seats. He told his people that "Buzz had really hurt his feelings". Buzz hadn't addressed it with him at that point.
Part 2: McKay said that he felt he was lied to when he was recruited because Buzz told him he would have a chance to start at the PF spot. However, when he was recruited Buzz expected that Otule would be gone. Otule stayed. That pushed Davante to the PF spot with Steve & Juan backing him up, so McKay had been working at the 5 spot. He didn't want to play the 5. Was he lied to? No, of course he was given the chance, but things changed and he wasn't better than Davante, Steve or Juan. Not yet anyway.
Part 3: He told Buzz that he wanted to transfer on Saturday morning. Buzz suggested they sit down and talk about it in the office on Monday morning. This would give McKay time to blow off some steam and Buzz could explain what he said, why he aid it etc. An hour later McKay was tweeting to other college coaches, tweeting that he was leaving etc. That was it.


I've been saying all along that Buzz hs a history of running when things get tough. He ran from New Orleans and Marquette. Yes, he can justify each individually. But there is a pattern.

He was running away from something, not to something.

Mayor - While I can agree that he was running away from the problems at MU, I won't accept that he "ran from New Orleans". None of us know what it was like to live in post-Katrina New Orleans. Buzz' number one reason for leaving was that he felt it was not a safe environment for his family. He had very young kids and was living in a very unstable environment. I don't believe he ever said that in the media, but on top of that his coaches weren't getting paid, his players weren't getting equipment, food, books etc. But the main reason was to get his kids out of there. Can't blame a guy at all for that.

Various comments on Jajuan post dunk - I agree, thought the same thing when it happened. Sure, go ahead and yell, pound your chest - it gets the team fired up. But don't stand there for a half hour, get your ass back on defense. That is when he finally moved, when St. John's inbounded the ball and started heading down court. Harrison did the same thing in second half, then had to sprint because Derrick inbounded and MU was running down court.

Final comment on Buzz - was going back and forth with him the other day, and like Crean, Karma can be a bitch. They suited up 7 guys against UNC. 4 freshman, 2 walkons, a soph PG and a 5'8 2G. Sounds a lot like Crean's first year at Indiana, proof that the grass ain't always greener!

[MUWhistler]

Guess I didn't come across as clearly as I wanted. I do like celebrations. But too often, they have become grandiose ways to celebrate "ME". When a football player makes a play and then they point to the name on the back of the jersey. It's all about me. I thought JJJ's celebration went a little too far. It was great to hoot and holler. But his delayed stance there meant he was taking himself out of the next play of the game. And frankly, it has been his only good play in quite awhile. He's had enough dumb plays, such as his next one as has been noted, that celebrating his one good play like that seemed excessive to me. I would like a little more humility in the celebration of "ME", which is why I gave the example of Barry Sanders. An extreme to the other side, yes. But just like that approach better than the ones that go to the excess the other way.

[TheSultan]

Playing Davante at the 4 was a dumb idea from the beginning.

[warriorfan4life]

In terms of the original question, yes...I put this season squarely on Buzz, in terms of player selection and inability/unwillingness to develop players (particularly) last year. Buzz knew what he was leaving behind when he "upgraded" to VT.

In terms of where we are now, I guess I came away from last night with a more optimistic view of the team's current status. We've held serve at this point in conference, winning both of our home games and having a chance to win every one of our road games. As mentioned by another poster, our record versus the spread is very good. I understand that many people (including me) don't like moral victories, but given the make-up of this team, those results are extremely encouraging. Think about it...we had a chance to win last night, on a night when three of our eight players combined for two points in 64 minutes...and two of those guys are replaced next year. We had a chance at the end at Georgetown, where even Nova got blown out. Yes, turnovers resulted in very disappointing finishes at DePaul and Xavier, but the team showed in can win if it can learn discipline...something that wasn't taught last season...and something clearly being emphasized by Wojo. If we can play this well with eight guys who are square pegs trying to fit in round holes, I am extremely encouraged to see what happens when we get more disciplined players who fit with Wojo's plan. I'm not giving up on this year's team...we're still net zero on Big East road wins and home losses...but I feel like this season and last are clearly trough seasons where we have to appreciate the progress.

I think many Marquette fans are feeling the pain after the highs of 2012-2013 season, winning the Big East, making the Elite 8, and having a top 10 recruiting class on the way. This was after back to back Sweet 16's and a run of eight consecutive NCAA trips (with only one bid in any doubt). We looked to be rolling as a program, and had a rightful belief that we could be the powerhouse of the reconstructed Big East. Fast forward to now, where we are in some danger of missing all postseason tournaments for the second straight year and likely will have a second straight bottom half finish in conference.

However, I am with you, and am very optimistic about the future and next year (and do not believe we need the serious squad reparations that many fans are postulating about). After the nadir of the Omaha game (and NJIT aftershock), this team has competed in every game and at this point has been unlucky not to win a couple of these close losses. Everyone on this current team has developed in some fashion, and many of them look significantly improved. Even Matt Carlino's shot looks much smoother then his BYU days, and his three point shooting percentage is much higher this year for a reason (despite having to take a good number of contested shots). If this team can start protecting the ball at something nearing the level we did in non-conference play, we may even surprise and win a bunch of games this season. The Big East is back in its perch as a top conference, and we have seen that fighting hard does not ensure victory. However, I think we ascend to the top of the conference starting next year and will be back in a groove shortly.

[Nukem2]

Playing Davante at the 4 was a dumb idea from the beginning.
Yep. The OxTule lineup should have been used only situationally.

[IWB]

True, we all know that now, but going into that season people were excited that MU had a true 4-5 combo for the first time in ages. It wasn't until the season began that the staff or the fans realized that those two simply didn't produce while on the floor together.

[TheSultan]

True, we all know that now, but going into that season people were excited that MU had a true 4-5 combo for the first time in ages. It wasn't until the season began that the staff or the fans realized that those two simply didn't produce while on the floor together.


They tried it the year before and it worked for one half of one game. (Syracuse) The second time they played Syracuse, it was awful. A lot of people thought that wouldn't work.

[MUFLA]

There was a stretch in the Cuse elite 8 tourney game where Chris & Ox were on the floor together and we went on a bit of a run. That lineup was brief, so was the run. Bad memories. Only Vander and Ox showed up in that game. Perhaps my memory is cloudy

[Nukem2]

True, we all know that now, but going into that season people were excited that MU had a true 4-5 combo for the first time in ages. It wasn't until the season began that the staff or the fans realized that those two simply didn't produce while on the floor together.
I certainly was not one of those and maintained all along that it was lineup for occasional situations. Not a good pairing for 98% of the time.

[TheSultan]

There was a stretch in the Cuse elite 8 tourney game where Chris & Ox were on the floor together and we went on a bit of a run. That lineup was brief, so was the run. Bad memories. Only Vander and Ox showed up in that game. Perhaps my memory is cloudy


I don't think that was the E8 game. It was effective in their game at the BC, but Boeheim planned for it the next time around by denying Ox the ball and forcing our guards to shoot.

[mufan2003]

I am very optimistic about the future and have turned the page in regards to Buzz. Only Carlino and Cohen are Wojo recruits. Cohen had already committed to MU, he grew up a MU fan and always dreamed of playing at MU. This year's struggles are a clear result of a coach leaving, only having 8 guys. If Wojo stays at least 10 years here, as he and Lovell discussed in the interviews, MU will see great success again and maybe even more than we had with Buzz.

[Markedman]

Buzz lost another 1......http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24984544/virginia-tech-announces-f-joey-van-zegeren-to-leave-basketball-team

[TheSultan]

Buzz lost another 1......http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24984544/virginia-tech-announces-f-joey-van-zegeren-to-leave-basketball-team


He was already suspended for "a lack of discipline and self-control at practice.” Wonder if MU would have any interest for a year since he is graduating in May.

[warriorfan4life]

He was already suspended for "a lack of discipline and self-control at practice.” Wonder if MU would have any interest for a year since he is graduating in May.

As much as Buzz probably deserved to be punched at times, I do not think you want to bring that into our program. It would make for an entertaining story though.

[pbiflyer]

Final comment on Buzz - was going back and forth with him the other day, and like Crean, Karma can be a bitch. They suited up 7 guys against UNC. 4 freshman, 2 walkons, a soph PG and a 5'8 2G. Sounds a lot like Crean's first year at Indiana, proof that the grass ain't always greener!

4 +2 + 1 + 1 = 8 ;)

But if you look at the box score, he played 9 players. God, his poor me schtick is annoying.

http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400587928

[AlexJesswein]

4 +2 + 1 + 1 = 8 ;)

But if you look at the box score, he played 9 players. God, his poor me schtick is annoying.

http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400587928

Absolutely

[Halo]

. High school kids are still using them to improve grades, need to do what you can, your classroom grades aren't everything so your GPA isn't always set in Stone.

Anything to this IWB? :cool:

Buzz is largely responsible for this mess. I am very impressed how Wojo has gotten this group to stick together and play hard every game.

[IWB]

4 +2 + 1 + 1 = 8 ;)

But if you look at the box score, he played 9 players. God, his poor me schtick is annoying.

http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400587928

I was the one that said seven, but correct, don't know where ther 9th guy came from. And it wasn't a poor me deal, he was answering a question.

[AlexJesswein]

Also--who is 5'8 on their roster? Shortest guy i see is listed at 6'1

http://www.hokiesports.com/mbasketball/players/

[AbovetheRim]

Buzz and his Wild Card ways with his mouth always drove me crazy. Particularly with the Jameel McKay thing, why even say that when the kid is sitting right there? What's the upside to that comment? It's one thing to wear your heart on your sleeve and speak your mind, it's another to say stupid things. The latter seemed to happen with more and more regularity as the years went on.

[Nukem2]

Buzz and his Wild Card ways with his mouth always drove me crazy. Particularly with the Jameel McKay thing, why even say that when the kid is sitting right there? What's the upside to that comment? It's one thing to wear your heart on your sleeve and speak your mind, it's another to say stupid things. The latter seemed to happen with more and more regularity as the years went on.
Have to admit that Buzz was always rather blunt after that first season with the Amigos. In the 2nd season, all the "woe is us" and "we are not any good" stuff started. Along with targeting individual players. Guess it caught up to him with McKay.

[TheSultan]

"Us against the world" is usually just a motivational technique that works for a short time. And in Buzz's case, "the world" started to include things like his boss and the President of the institution. If Buzz is going to be long-term successful anywhere, he has to understand that you can only be the scrappy underdog for so long. You don't need to exaggerate the slights against you and the obstacles you are facing. In the end, people don't really care - they just want to win.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

"Us against the world" is usually just a motivational technique that works for a short time. And in Buzz's case, "the world" started to include things like his boss and the President of the institution. If Buzz is going to be long-term successful anywhere, he has to understand that you can only be the scrappy underdog for so long. You don't need to exaggerate the slights against you and the obstacles you are facing. In the end, people don't really care - they just want to win.

I think you can get away with it more at the college level because you only have kids for 4 years. It's when you try using that against the higher ups and people with power that tend to stick around longer than that that the situation becomes untenable.

That's why I think someone like Buzz and some NBA coaches like Scott Skiles or Tom Thibodeau are better suited for the college game. Some do tend to grate faster than others, though. Last year it sure looked like Buzz lost the team, and that his underdog mindset didn't resonate with everyone.

[Halo]

I think you can get away with it more at the college level because you only have kids for 4 years. It's when you try using that against the higher ups and people with power that tend to stick around longer than that that the situation becomes untenable.

That's why I think someone like Buzz and some NBA coaches like Scott Skiles or Tom Thibodeau are better suited for the college game. Some do tend to grate faster than others, though. Last year it sure looked like Buzz lost the team, and that his underdog mindset didn't resonate with everyone.

Correct. And guys like Gardner and Wilson had enough of the same old war cry for all of those years and seemed to tune it out. Last years team was just a mess.

[unclejohn]

That is one way of looking at it. Another is that if Buzz were still here, Todd Mayo would be as well, and he would have brought in three more players, two of which were pretty good and one of which Wojo worked hard to keep. There would have been more talent on the team than there is presently. In addition, in Buzz's second year, I turned to the original poster at Midnight Madness and said, "It's going to be a long year." He agreed. I was shocked when the starting guards were Acker and Cubillian, two guys who between them had not played an entire half all season until Dominic broke his foot. Buzz lead that team to the tournament that year, mostly with smoke and mirrors. As for developing talent, he lost some guys, true. He also really developed Matthews, Butler, Crowder, Hayward, to name a few. I look at Buzz's tenure here and it was remarkable. Maybe he was due to burn out. But I would take that seven year period from any coach. As for last season, things did not go well. The team looked good at the beginning of the season, even without Vander. Despite the score, the Ohio State game was winnable if the team could have thrown the ball in the ocean that day. But it couldn't. And the team did not jell and pull off some big wins late in the season. Teams have disappointing seasons. UConn under Calhoun, Louisville under Pitino and Crum, Georgetown under both Thompsons, many others. Last year did not define either Buzz's career or his tenure at Marquette.

[WindyCityGoldenEagle]

Very, very well said UJ.

[Nukem2]

That is one way of looking at it. Another is that if Buzz were still here, Todd Mayo would be as well, and he would have brought in three more players, two of which were pretty good and one of which Wojo worked hard to keep. There would have been more talent on the team than there is presently. In addition, in Buzz's second year, I turned to the original poster at Midnight Madness and said, "It's going to be a long year." He agreed. I was shocked when the starting guards were Acker and Cubillian, two guys who between them had not played an entire half all season until Dominic broke his foot. Buzz lead that team to the tournament that year, mostly with smoke and mirrors. As for developing talent, he lost some guys, true. He also really developed Matthews, Butler, Crowder, Hayward, to name a few. I look at Buzz's tenure here and it was remarkable. Maybe he was due to burn out. But I would take that seven year period from any coach. As for last season, things did not go well. The team looked good at the beginning of the season, even without Vander. Despite the score, the Ohio State game was winnable if the team could have thrown the ball in the ocean that day. But it couldn't. And the team did not jell and pull off some big wins late in the season. Teams have disappointing seasons. UConn under Calhoun, Louisville under Pitino and Crum, Georgetown under both Thompsons, many others. Last year did not define either Buzz's career or his tenure at Marquette.
Actually, Matthews development was due more to work with Dale Layer who left the next year. Yes, under Buzz's regime, but it really was Layer's efforts.

[TheSultan]

That is one way of looking at it. Another is that if Buzz were still here, Todd Mayo would be as well,


TAMU over at Scoop, who has connections of some sort in the Athletic Department, said that whatever Todd did that even Buzz wasn't going to be able to keep him around. I have wondered if it has anything to do with this.

http://www.tmz.com/2014/12/19/o-j-mayo-private-jet-lawsuit-drugs-nba/

[IWB]

I don't think that is what TAMU is referring to.

[AbovetheRim]

I'm not going to get involved in any of the innuendo going on here but I know this much. While I admire the job Buzz did here and simultaneously dislike his rough around the edges persona, he did tell IWB that the recruiting standard changes set the program back 2 years. Here we are and that's 2 years assuming he was the coach and everything else stayed the same. I don't need to remind anyone here that much has changed in the last year. That's the story for me regardless of how much folks here want to blame him.

[mufan2003]

Meanwhile Virginia tech is 0-5 and 8-10. Buzz doesn't have the great history of MU to recruit players to Virginia Tech. No Al McGuire, Dwyane Wade, Steve Novak, Travis Diener, Wes Matthews, Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, DJO, National Championship, Final Fours or Elite 8's. VT has no storied history! That is why I always say that MU helped make Buzz. Just look at his first year (Seniors - DJ, Wes, Jerel and Junior - Lazar) Sure, Buzz busted his ass, but his same effort at VT may not bear the same fruit because Virginia Tech has no history of any success in basketball.

[TheSultan]

I'm not going to get involved in any of the innuendo going on here but I know this much. While I admire the job Buzz did here and simultaneously dislike his rough around the edges persona, he did tell IWB that the recruiting standard changes set the program back 2 years. Here we are and that's 2 years assuming he was the coach and everything else stayed the same. I don't need to remind anyone here that much has changed in the last year. That's the story for me regardless of how much folks here want to blame him.


Buzz made plenty of recruiting mistakes that have lead to the problems we have had the last couple of years.

[AbovetheRim]

Buzz made plenty of recruiting mistakes that have lead to the problems we have had the last couple of years.

He sure did and in years past he was able to cover for them by plugging a Jae Crowder, Dwight Buycks or DJO into the mix. So many want to persecute the guy for his HS misses and ignore the impact the JUCO's made. Heck, off the top of my head, he put at least 4 JUCO's into the NBA. NOBODY has that kind of success with JUCO's and the regime he butted head's with prevented him from recruiting those type of players to make up for the inevitable misses. Blame the FP&LW reign of terror. That's all I"m saying.

[TheSultan]

He sure did and in years past he was able to cover for them by plugging a Jae Crowder, Dwight Buycks or DJO into the mix. So many want to persecute the guy for his HS misses and ignore the impact the JUCO's made. Heck, off the top of my head, he put at least 4 JUCO's into the NBA. NOBODY has that kind of success with JUCO's and the regime he butted head's with prevented him from recruiting those type of players to make up for the inevitable misses. Blame the FP&LW reign of terror. That's all I"m saying.


There isn't one person to blame. If Buzz doesn't swing and miss so many times, he wouldn't have to rely on Jucos like Jae, who is nowhere close to graduating and was lucky to even be allowed into Marquette in the first place. Since MU hasn't reversed the changes that SP & LW made, to my knowledge, it is up the coach to adapt.

[AbovetheRim]

There isn't one person to blame. If Buzz doesn't swing and miss so many times, he wouldn't have to rely on Jucos like Jae, who is nowhere close to graduating and was lucky to even be allowed into Marquette in the first place. Since MU hasn't reversed the changes that SP & LW made, to my knowledge, it is up the coach to adapt.

Bucky? Is that you, Bucky?

[TheSultan]

Lol. Give me a break. At least two people associated with the University have told me about Jae and that the rule implemented by LW and SP were almost entirely related to his admission.

[mufan2003]

Anyone notice how Carlino is having more success than any other time in his career. MU is special baby!!! (in my Dick Vitale voice)

[Gato78]

Jae enrolled with no chance to graduate. I agree with the rule that provides a Juco cannot come unless he can graduate. Our rule did not prohibit Jameel McKay from enrolling. Enough of the BS about the change of admission rules. We are an institution of higher learning--not a basketball mill.

[AlexJesswein]

Jae enrolled with no chance to graduate. I agree with the rule that provides a Juco cannot come unless he can graduate. Our rule did not prohibit Jameel McKay from enrolling. Enough of the BS about the change of admission rules. We are an institution of higher learning--not a basketball mill.

Could not agree more!

[AbovetheRim]

Jae enrolled with no chance to graduate. I agree with the rule that provides a Juco cannot come unless he can graduate. Our rule did not prohibit Jameel McKay from enrolling. Enough of the BS about the change of admission rules. We are an institution of higher learning--not a basketball mill.

According to the federal government, only 36.4% of full-time students graduate from college in four years. Why are athletes held to a standard other college students are not?

[TheSultan]

According to the federal government, only 36.4% of full-time students graduate from college in four years. Why are athletes held to a standard other college students are not?


How many full-time students have 100% of their direct costs paid for and the academic help that MU basketball players get? No one is expecting a 100% graduation rate. No one isn't for allowing exception for admission for athletes who wouldn't get in as students otherwise. Marquette wants there to be limits however - they want Juco athletes with a reasonable expectation for graduation. Wojo seems to understand those limitations, yet is still able to recruit Jucos. Whether or not he gets them here and admitted is another thing.

And again, Buzz deserves a lot of the blame for this year and last year. Outside of the f*ck up that was Todd Mayo, he didn't sign a single quality guard in the classes of 2011 or 2012. That's why this year consists of a graduate transfer, a limited PG who is playing a level higher than he should, and a bunch of inexperience. The Juco thing is a complete red herring.

[MUMac]

How many full-time students have 100% of their direct costs paid for and the academic help that MU basketball players get? No one is expecting a 100% graduation rate. No one isn't for allowing exception for admission for athletes who wouldn't get in as students otherwise. Marquette wants there to be limits however - they want Juco athletes with a reasonable expectation for graduation. Wojo seems to understand those limitations, yet is still able to recruit Jucos. Whether or not he gets them here and admitted is another thing.

And again, Buzz deserves a lot of the blame for this year and last year. Outside of the f*ck up that was Todd Mayo, he didn't sign a single quality guard in the classes of 2011 or 2012. That's why this year consists of a graduate transfer, a limited PG who is playing a level higher than he should, and a bunch of inexperience. The Juco thing is a complete red herring.

That is the cost element, but not the time element. The time demands of these kids is enormous. Beyond practice, games and travel. Individual skills, training room ... It is more than an 8 hour day they put in. Plus study, study hall ... They make up some of the schooling in summer. It is a difficult balance to be able to graduate in 4 years as an athlete and I give each one that does a ton of credit.

[Nukem2]

That is the cost element, but not the time element. The time demands of these kids is enormous. Beyond practice, games and travel. Individual skills, training room ... It is more than an 8 hour day they put in. Plus study, study hall ... They make up some of the schooling in summer. It is a difficult balance to be able to graduate in 4 years as an athlete and I give each one that does a ton of credit.
Yep.

[Markedman]

Speaking of Buzz.....his VT team is beating Virginia by 5 with 14 minutes to go in the game......

[Nukem2]

Speaking of Buzz.....his VT team is beating Virginia by 5 with 14 minutes to go in the game......

Now up 10 with 10:34 to go. VA is stone cold in this game. Offense is what Bennett's team will not go to the Final 4.

[Nukem2]

Also interesting to see Shayok, Hill and Pierce all on the court simultaneously.