Delay in New Arena Site Selection

[Goose85]

According to the Biz Journal, the Bucks owners may need to push back announcing their proposed location for the new facility until after January.

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2015/01/14/bucks-now-say-arena-news-may-be-delayed.html

I personally hope it is still the JS building / arena site.
I'm glad the Bucks owners are taking the time to make sure they get it right.

Could the delay mean they are working with the JS to give them adequate time to find a new office building for the handful of employees that still work downtown?

[TheSultan]

My take is that the Arena and JS building site is the preferred location, but they are using the site north of the BC as a bargaining chip. JS isn't likely going to get a better deal for that building than what they are offering now. I don't think we have heard anything from Gimbel for awhile, which is interesting. Something must be going on behind the scenes.

[Nukem2]

My take is that the Arena and JS building site is the preferred location, but they are using the site north of the BC as a bargaining chip. JS isn't likely going to get a better deal for that building than what they are offering now. I don't think we have heard anything from Gimbel for awhile, which is interesting. Something must be going on behind the scenes.
Don't think the JS has much of a market if any for that building. The building is rather useless and needs to be torn down. That cost can be folded into the development of the new arena. For JS and other potential buyers, the building/demolition is a real albatross.

[MUfan12]

My take is that the Arena and JS building site is the preferred location, but they are using the site north of the BC as a bargaining chip. JS isn't likely going to get a better deal for that building than what they are offering now. I don't think we have heard anything from Gimbel for awhile, which is interesting. Something must be going on behind the scenes.

Agreed. If they really wanted the site north of the BC, it would be announced already.

[MU/Panther]

The locations the Bucks are considering "are within a professional baseball throwing distance of each other."

-----Sounds like JS building and Panther Arena to me.

[IWB]

My guess is they are still shooting for the JS Building but the JS is trying to play hardball and get a better offer. Won't happen. JS' employees won't be homeless, there is a plan for that too. JS just needs to accept.

[MUBasketball]

My guess is they are still shooting for the JS Building but the JS is trying to play hardball and get a better offer. Won't happen. JS' employees won't be homeless, there is a plan for that too. JS just needs to accept.

This seems so obvious, why wouldn't the JS jump at the chance to dump a building they have no need for? Do they expect greater growth downtown once the new arena is built in another spot and they can then get more for the land down the line?

[TheSultan]

This seems so obvious, why wouldn't the JS jump at the chance to dump a building they have no need for? Do they expect greater growth downtown once the new arena is built in another spot and they can then get more for the land down the line?


Hardball can be played by both sides. Its an asset that they can only sell once. Why not negotiate?

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

I've always had the impression it was Gimbel and the Arena that was more of a holdup than the JS building.

[MUBasketball]

Hardball can be played by both sides. Its an asset that they can only sell once. Why not negotiate?

True. I was basing my question on the assumption that they don't end up selling for the new arena. In that case, what would be the logic? And the new owners sounded like they had moved on so that sounds more like people not willing to sell as opposed to playing hardball.

[KMWTRUCKS]

http://www.forbes.com/nba-valuations

they have the bucks at 600 mil, the clippers at 1.66 Mil The bucks are the lowest team of the group. also have the lowest revenue but I assume that would go up with a new stadium.

[Markedman]

This is a few days old.....http://saveourbucks.com/new-arena-sites-narrow-our-thoughts/

[MUBasketball]

Not trying to be a jerk, but this is from the UWM board:

"We stirred up enough of a sh*tstorm with the petition that I believe it nudged the Bucks elsewhere."

Yes, I'm sure the Bucks owners could have acquired the land for their preferred location for the new arena, but a little petition caused them to abort and pick another spot. :rolleyes: I mean c'mon.

[Goose85]

I really think that JS building site would be the place.
Links with the convention center.
Atrium that feeds into green space and the river walk.
Closer to the 'hub' of downtown.
Turn Old World 3rd street into a pedestrian mall with expanded shops and dining options on the east side of the street linking to the river walk.
Marcus Center for the Arts right across the river from the facility.

In my opinion, it would really be too bad if that doesn't happen and they move further north from Wisconsin Ave.

People complain about Miller Park receiving tax revenue, but I think the continued use of tax money to maintain the 65 year old Arena is a worse use of tax dollars.
While most think the JS / Arena site is the best site, another benefit would be eliminating spending tax dollars on maintaining the Arena.

[IWB]

Maybe the current silence is a good thing. Perhaps everyone is close to a deal and things are being hammered out now? Nothing but a guess, but this could be the quiet before the storm.

[TheSultan]

Maybe the current silence is a good thing. Perhaps everyone is close to a deal and things are being hammered out now? Nothing but a guess, but this could be the quiet before the storm.


I agree with this. The fact that you haven't heard anything from Gimbel or UWM lately means they could be involved in the process too.

[MU/Panther]

This from last Friday.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/bucks-looking-at-two-sites-for-arena-related-development-b99427518z1-288855831.html

Talk to UWM AD on Tuesday and she said her people told her that the Bucks are done with UW Milwaukee Panther Arena.

[Markedman]

The NBA seems pretty confident they are going to get this thing done..Andrew Gruman ‏@AndrewGruman 6m6 minutes ago
Seattle mayor Ed Murray said Adam Silver “made it very clear” that the #Bucks are staying in Milwaukee: http://seattletimes.com/html/nba/2025523763_arena23xml.html …

[Goose85]

Looks like the Jock Tax will be how the state chips in. Announce on a Friday, get's little attention. Walker is on board, and that should mean the state assembly will be on board.

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2015/01/23/gov-walker-to-include-jock-tax-for-bucks-arena-in.html

[TheSultan]

Good find Goose. Excellent news.

[Cooby Snacks]

I'm not a fan of public financing for these types of projects, but using tax revenue that's generated only if there's an NBA team to generate it seems like the most palatable option.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

I'm not a fan of public financing for these types of projects, but using tax revenue that's generated only if there's an NBA team to generate it seems like the most palatable option.

Agreed. Honestly, I'd take the taxes both from the players on the Bucks and the players that come here for road games. Without the Bucks, those go away. If the figure is $15M per year, put the $150 down and pay this back into it for 10 years. Can't see how many people could argue with that, as the money wouldn't exist otherwise.

[IWB]

I understand that people are not in favor of public funding, but as Goose has pointed out, the State gave Amazon several millions in tax breaks to put their facility in Kenosha. Those million will not come back, that was a gift. If the state ponies up cash for the new stadium, they will get it back. They will get it back because they own it, so they technically get the profits. They will also get parking revenue, they will get the jock tax.

The state ponied up a lot of cash for Amazon, but they will not get that back. That cost the state a lot of cash.

if the state ponies up a lot of cash for the new arena, they will get it back. A new stadium will actually make the state money.

[Markedman]

Will the state own it?

If the new owners put up 70% of the money I would think they would own it but as was said above you will get it back through the taxes of people that won't be here otherwise.

I think what makes this deal a good one is that the owners are putting in so much of the money. They aren't asking for a gift from the tax payers really......more like a partnership.

[Halo]

Looks like the Jock Tax will be how the state chips in. Announce on a Friday, get's little attention. Walker is on board, and that should mean the state assembly will be on board.

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2015/01/23/gov-walker-to-include-jock-tax-for-bucks-arena-in.html

Walker winning was huge with a Republican Senate and Assembly majority.

[TheSultan]

I understand that people are not in favor of public funding, but as Goose has pointed out, the State gave Amazon several millions in tax breaks to put their facility in Kenosha. Those million will not come back, that was a gift. If the state ponies up cash for the new stadium, they will get it back. They will get it back because they own it, so they technically get the profits. They will also get parking revenue, they will get the jock tax.

The state ponied up a lot of cash for Amazon, but they will not get that back. That cost the state a lot of cash.

if the state ponies up a lot of cash for the new arena, they will get it back. A new stadium will actually make the state money.


Not to get into too much of a economic argument here, but the state will likely get more money back from Amazon than they will the new arena. Amazon is projected to create 1,600 jobs. The arena will come nowhere close to that. Furthermore, the economic activity of the arena is likely going to simply cannibalize money spent elsewhere.

There are the indirect benefits of having a facility like that in Milwaukee though. Coupled with the announcement that Johnson Controls might build the largest building in the state right downtown, that is a good thing.

[Gato78]

Amazon takes business away from Mayfair and Best Buy and Barnes and Noble and all sorts of other existing employers in Wisconsin. The notion that any new business "creates jobs" is a pile. It only transfers jobs from one to another (though the transfer knows no state lines). Only economic growth truly creates jobs. That concept is from the late Dr. Peter Danner of MU Economics, who said that in class about 40 years ago. Same is true with the new arena. No new jobs will be created. It will only redirect economic activity that would otherwise be found elsewhere--whether it would be some other form of entertainment, savings or just a thicker steak on Saturday night.

[TheSultan]

Amazon takes business away from Mayfair and Best Buy and Barnes and Noble and all sorts of other existing employers in Wisconsin. The notion that any new business "creates jobs" is a pile. It only transfers jobs from one to another (though the transfer knows no state lines). Only economic growth truly creates jobs. That concept is from the late Dr. Peter Danner of MU Economics, who said that in class about 40 years ago. Same is true with the new arena. No new jobs will be created. It will only redirect economic activity that would otherwise be found elsewhere--whether it would be some other form of entertainment, savings or just a thicker steak on Saturday night.


I don't disagree with you in general, except that I think it is better for Wisconsin that the Amazon facility is located in Kenosha rather than 10 miles south across the border.

[IWB]

Amazon is projected to create 1,600 jobs. The arena will come nowhere close to that.

Wrong - the Bradley Center currently employs over 1,400 people directly or indirectly. With the new amenities of s new arena (bars, restaurants, shops) that number will grow.

[TheSultan]

Wrong - the Bradley Center currently employs over 1,400 people directly or indirectly. With the new amenities of s new arena (bars, restaurants, shops) that number will grow.

Part time jobs...and the indirect figure is misleading because those jobs would exist elsewhere. Many of Amazon's jobs are full time with benefits.

[Markedman]

Amazon the company takes business away from local malls but having the Amazon "distribution facility" here doesn't. They were doing business here anyway.......having the distribution center here instead of Illinois is a big plus for the area and state.

[IWB]

Part time jobs...and the indirect figure is misleading because those jobs would exist elsewhere. Many of Amazon's jobs are full time with benefits.

No - first off, a good chunk of Amazon' will be part time. They aren't going to be giving 500 order pickers full benefits.

Also, when it comes to the indirect employees of the Bradley Center, tell me where the contracted security guards, caterers, bartenders and cleaning crew would exist on nights when the Bucks are gone? Will there suddenly be a need to bring a full security crew, caterers and cleaning staff to some other event that won't be happening in town?

[TheSultan]

No - first off, a good chunk of Amazon' will be part time. They aren't going to be giving 500 order pickers full benefits.

Also, when it comes to the indirect employees of the Bradley Center, tell me where the contracted security guards, caterers, bartenders and cleaning crew would exist on nights when the Bucks are gone? Will there suddenly be a need to bring a full security crew, caterers and cleaning staff to some other event that won't be happening in town?


There are all sorts of places where part time hourly workers can work. People will spend their entertainment dollars elsewhere. This has been shown again and again in economic studies. Assumptions like yours simply do not hold up.

And I never said Amazon wouldn't have part time jobs. Just that many of them will be full time.

[IWB]

There are all sorts of places where part time hourly workers can work. People will spend their entertainment dollars elsewhere. This has been shown again and again in economic studies. Assumptions like yours simply do not hold up.

And I never said Amazon wouldn't have part time jobs. Just that many of them will be full time.

Really? Do you realize how many people come from Illinois for Bucks games? How many people from Illinois come for concerts? Will those people still come to do other things?

How many people travel with a team for games? When the Knicks come to town, their staff comes, their team comes, the New York media comes....they all stay in hotels, eat at restaurants etc. Who comes with no team? Nobody. Not to mention how many fans come when the Bucks play Chicago.

Now onto employees. They will find employment elsewhere? Seriously? Most all of them do already have employment elsewhere, but this is part of their income. What, the Bucks move and 400+ people that work on game day are suddenly going to find part time employment because people will spend entertainment dollars elsewhere? Yeah, the Bucks moved - AMC movie theaters are hiring 200 people as theaters around Milwaukee are seeing a massive increase in movie attendance.

[TheSultan]

Really? Do you realize how many people come from Illinois for Bucks games? How many people from Illinois come for concerts? Will those people still come to do other things?

How many people travel with a team for games? When the Knicks come to town, their staff comes, their team comes, the New York media comes....they all stay in hotels, eat at restaurants etc. Who comes with no team? Nobody. Not to mention how many fans come when the Bucks play Chicago.

Now onto employees. They will find employment elsewhere? Seriously? Most all of them do already have employment elsewhere, but this is part of their income. What, the Bucks move and 400+ people that work on game day are suddenly going to find part time employment because people will spend entertainment dollars elsewhere? Yeah, the Bucks moved - AMC movie theaters are hiring 200 people as theaters around Milwaukee are seeing a massive increase in movie attendance.


IWB, your anecdotal evidence is fine and good. It just doesn't hold up to study after study that indicates that government entities do not make money on such deals and that the overall impact on employment is minimal.

That being said, I want this deal to go forward because I like having the NBA in Milwaukee. I think the new owners are going to be a shot in the arm for this franchise like with Anastasio (sp) and the Brewers. I also think that having economic activity downtown, versus spread out over the area, is a good thing for any metropolitan area.

But if the state spends money on this, it will not make that money back. It isn't an "investment." It's an expense.

[Goose85]

I seriously doubt that Amazon, with hundreds of robotic employees, or the other companies the state has helped expand, stay or relocate, means more money to the state than the Bucks. State income tax alone, because of the Bucks organization, could very well approach / exceed $20 million after the next TV deal. I don't think the 1,500 people at Amazon will be making the kind of money that will kick in that level of revenue to the state coffers.

An Amazon distribution center doesn't brings world wide attention to the city like an NBA team does (how is that valued?).
Amazon doesn't have the opportunity to bring in over $50 million in direct spending should we land an all star game.
Nobody would come to Milwaukee for a weekend because of an Amazon distribution center, but they do for sports.
Just this weekend I saw a number of G-Town fans at the MU game, here for the weekend. Spoke to a few, in from DC and Chicago.
Don't underestimate the value of having NBA / MLB teams in a city in attracting young executives to stay or relocate to a city.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

But if the state spends money on this, it will not make that money back. It isn't an "investment." It's an expense.

If the state is required to kick in $100M, it will make that back in under 10 years through the jock tax.

[IrwinFletcher]

http://news.yahoo.com/super-bowl-host-city-still-reeling-over-sports-080133349.html


Something to consider.