Big East vs. So-Called Power 5...

[Mark Miller]

Big East 7, Big Ten 5
Seton Hall over Rutgers
Villanova over Michigan
Villanova over Illinois
Butler over Northwestern
Georgetown over Indiana
St. John's over Minnesota
Creighton over Nebraska
Ohio State over MU
Michigan State over MU
Wisconsin over MU
Wisconsin over Georgetown
Indiana over Butler

Big East 7, ACC 1
Villanova over Syracuse
Butler over North Carolina
Providence over Florida State
Providence over Notre Dame
Providnece over Miami
Marquette over Georgia Tech
St. John's over Syracuse
Boston College over Providence

Big East 2, Pac 12 2
De Paul over Stanford
Marquette over Arizona State
Oregon State over De Paul
Colorado over De Paul

SEC 5, Big East 4
Xavier over Alabama
Xavier over Missouri
Georgetown over Florida
Marquette over Tennessee
Mississippi over Creighton
Auburn over Xavier
Kentucky over Providence
Tennessee over Butler
Georgia over Seton Hall

Big 12 2, Big East 1
Creighton over Oklahoma
Oklahoma over Butler
Kansas over Georgetown

TOTAL -- Big East 21, So-Called Power Five 15

[WindyCityGoldenEagle]

It's a great start and is certainly getting some well deserved notoriety. However, whether we like it or not the the perception of the league will be determined come March.

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

It's a great start and is certainly getting some well deserved notoriety. However, whether we like it or not the the perception of the league will be determined come March.

I think you hit it on the head, and honestly I think what the Big East is missing is that powerhouse program that competes for final fours and national championships... The Big 10 has Michigan St., Ohio St., Wisconsin, Michigan... The SEC has Kentucky and Florida... The Big 12 has Kansas... The Pac-12 has Arizona... The ACC has Duke, UNC, and Louisville...

All these programs may or may not be strong this year, but they are regularly in the discussion for contenders. You can count on each conference putting in at least one final four team every other year or so... The Big East just doesn't have that... All our teams just hang in that 2nd tier.

[WindyCityGoldenEagle]

I think you hit it on the head, and honestly I think what the Big East is missing is that powerhouse program that competes for final fours and national championships... The Big 10 has Michigan St., Ohio St., Wisconsin, Michigan... The SEC has Kentucky and Florida... The Big 12 has Kansas... The Pac-12 has Arizona... The ACC has Duke, UNC, and Louisville...

All these programs may or may not be strong this year, but they are regularly in the discussion for contenders. You can count on each conference putting in at least one final four team every other year or so... The Big East just doesn't have that... All our teams just hang in that 2nd tier.

Unfortunately I agree with you. The depth of the league is proving it can go up against anyone. However, the top of the league just doesn't have those marquee regular final four contenders that the other leagues do. Hopefully some day, but it might be an uphill battle if football continues to drive big bucks to the other schools (not that our Fox contract is anything to laugh about).

[kneelb4zerg]

Unfortunately I agree with you. The depth of the league is proving it can go up against anyone. However, the top of the league just doesn't have those marquee regular final four contenders that the other leagues do. Hopefully some day, but it might be an uphill battle if football continues to drive big bucks to the other schools (not that our Fox contract is anything to laugh about).

This is all ********. Stop buying the ESPN power 5 hype

[Halo]

Some stats here on Big East vs. the Big Ten from a few fans of Marquette and the Big East.

http://buckyville.yuku.com/topic/77518/Marquette-loses-DePaul-HENRY-ELLENSONS-thoughts-Today?page=4#.VKtoyWTF9ak

[WindyCityGoldenEagle]

This is all ********. Stop buying the ESPN power 5 hype

If what I said is "all bull$****" than staying on point, please explain to me who the marquee teams are at the top of the Big East who regularly compete for final fours?

Big Ten: MSU
Big 12: KU
SEC: UK, Fl
ACC: Duke, NC, Louisville, Cuse
PAC: AZ
Big East: ?

[TheSultan]

This is all ********. Stop buying the ESPN power 5 hype


Well since I don't watch ESPN outside of live events, I haven't bought into anything. I just think he is spot on. A conference's perceived strength is based not only on its depth but by its quality at the very top.

The recent B10 "resurgence" in football is a great example of that. The B10 is perceived as improving because its three ranked teams all won their bowl games. (UW, OSU, MSU) However if you objectively line up the conference against the others, the only other P5 it likely wins a majority of head-to-head games against is the ACC and maybe the B12.

The BE needs a team or two to make noise in March. Villanova has the capability. Outside of that, unless someone really steps up and improves, I am not sure there is another one at this point.

[Goose85]

Well since I don't watch ESPN outside of live events, I haven't bought into anything. I just think he is spot on. A conference's perceived strength is based not only on its depth but by its quality at the very top.

The recent B10 "resurgence" in football is a great example of that. The B10 is perceived as improving because its three ranked teams all won their bowl games. (UW, OSU, MSU) However if you objectively line up the conference against the others, the only other P5 it likely wins a majority of head-to-head games against is the ACC and maybe the B12.

The BE needs a team or two to make noise in March. Villanova has the capability. Outside of that, unless someone really steps up and improves, I am not sure there is another one at this point.

This is a valid point on why the Big East doesn't get the respect it deserves. We are as good as anyone top to bottom, but we do need that marquee team.

The Big 10 was considered down in football because Michigan, one of two marquee teams, was down.
People long thought the ACC was still a great basketball conference because of UNC and Duke, while the conference was actually down.
Big 12 football can't be good this year because Texas and Oklahoma were not at the top (most didn't see a Baylor or TCU game).

The casual fan will base their opinion of a conference on their marquee teams. On which team does the casual fan base the success of the Big East? Likely Georgetown.

[Mucrisco]

Honest question:

In the old Big East, and I mean when the conference first started, who were considered the marquee teams?

As long as the conference stays strong, I believe one can emerge. I believe competitions breeds winners. If our conference stays strong, order to compete in our conference, you have to stay on top of things. You have to recruit well. You have to hire the best coaches. With all of that, an elite team should emerge. Louisville probably wasn't considered a top tier team, and now everybody knows them. The same could be said about UConn. Heck, Michigan State probably rose to that level. Hopefully we can be that team.

[Goose85]

Honest question:

In the old Big East, and I mean when the conference first started, who were considered the marquee teams?

As long as the conference stays strong, I believe one can emerge. I believe competitions breeds winners. If our conference stays strong, order to compete in our conference, you have to stay on top of things. You have to recruit well. You have to hire the best coaches. With all of that, an elite team should emerge. Louisville probably wasn't considered a top tier team, and now everybody knows them. The same could be said about UConn. Heck, Michigan State probably rose to that level. Hopefully we can be that team.

I agree one can emerge. Stable and identifiable winning coaches helps.

Initially, way back, I think it was Georgetown (Thompson), St. John's (Carneseca) and Villanova (Massimino). St John's didn't win a national title like Villanova and Georgetown, but Carneseca had some top teams, and all had top players. ESPN helped with providing national exposure.

In the MU era of the Big East I think it was UConn (Calhoun), Syracuse (Boheim), Louisville (Pitino) and to a lesser extent Georgetown.
UConn with 4 titles since 1999, Syracuse and Louisville both won a title. Numerous NCAA trips.

Right now in the conference it looks like Villanova and Jay Wright have a chance to be that program, and the Thompson legacy with JT3 helps Georgetown.
Hopefully Wojo stays and can build MU into that nationally recognized top level team.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

There really weren't any true marquee teams. Providence, Syracuse, and Georgetown were all well regarded, but it isn't like they were regularly battling Marquette, UCLA, UNC, and other truly top tier schools for titles. They were pretty regular in the tourney and had chances to go to the Final Four if things broke right, but they weren't really any more potent than Villanova is.

Georgetown became a beast in short order. Within 5 years they were a premier program, but while they got there in the 1980s they were not there in the 1970s before the founding of the Big East.

[Mark Miller]

The "NotMarkMiller" person who posts on Buckyville is obviously not me. Odd that somebody would use that as a name to post with.

[Goose85]

The "NotMarkMiller" person who posts on Buckyville is obviously not me. Odd that somebody would use that as a name to post with.

That just means you are big time Mark.

[mufan2003]

Big East 7, Big Ten 5
Seton Hall over Rutgers
Villanova over Michigan
Villanova over Illinois
Butler over Northwestern
Georgetown over Indiana
St. John's over Minnesota
Creighton over Nebraska
Ohio State over MU
Michigan State over MU
Wisconsin over MU
Wisconsin over Georgetown
Indiana over Butler

Big East 7, ACC 1
Villanova over Syracuse
Butler over North Carolina
Providence over Florida State
Providence over Notre Dame
Providnece over Miami
Marquette over Georgia Tech
St. John's over Syracuse
Boston College over Providence

Big East 2, Pac 12 2
De Paul over Stanford
Marquette over Arizona State
Oregon State over De Paul
Colorado over De Paul

SEC 5, Big East 4
Xavier over Alabama
Xavier over Missouri
Georgetown over Florida
Marquette over Tennessee
Mississippi over Creighton
Auburn over Xavier
Kentucky over Providence
Tennessee over Butler
Georgia over Seton Hall

Big 12 2, Big East 1
Creighton over Oklahoma
Oklahoma over Butler
Kansas over Georgetown

TOTAL -- Big East 21, So-Called Power Five 15

Thanks for putting this together Mark. For those talking about March, I agree, but you can't put the "cart before the horse." The Big East doing very well in non-conference sets up the opportunity to possibly have 6 or 7 teams have a shot at winning in March. Last year during conference play, whenever they would show a Big East team's resume, they always talked about how the lack of key non-conference wins would hurt a team. That should not happen this year, which is why those non-conference wins were big.

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

I think it is harder today to become a name brand than it was 30-40 years ago. I honestly think Villanova is the closest right now with their sustained success but they need to start winning in the tournament... Non conference is great, but March is when legacies are made. Look at UCONN, two of their titles came in years where they weren't even a ranked team, but yet now they are being viewed as a top tier program in basketball.

At the end of the day the Big East will have to continue to struggle for national recognition until they get that powerhouse program or they go back to ESPN... Otherwise the major player in the media is dead set on bashing them and diminishing their status. we are as good as they come when it comes to depth, but our top is no where near as strong on a year to year basis and that holds is back from being great.

[WindyCityGoldenEagle]

I'm too lazy to look it up but I believe I heard a stat a little while ago that said in it's last ten NCAA appearances, Nova has lost to the eventual national champ 5 times - kind of interesting.

[mufan2003]

If what I said is "all bull$****" than staying on point, please explain to me who the marquee teams are at the top of the Big East who regularly compete for final fours?

Big Ten: MSU
Big 12: KU
SEC: UK, Fl
ACC: Duke, NC, Louisville, Cuse
PAC: AZ
Big East: ?



I understand there may be that perception, but look at the last 8 years:

Georgetown: Final 4 in 2007
Villanova: Final 4 in 2009
Butler: National Championship game in 2010 and 2011
Marquette: Sweet 16, Sweet 16, Elite 8 in 2011, 2012, 2013

Big Ten has not won a championship since 2000, and they hang their hat on Michigan State and Ohio State to a lesser extent. Wisconsin's first Final 4 under Bo Ryan, yet they have never finished lower than 4th in conference. ACC is not the best conference, but I agree that right now they would get my vote for having 4 teams with the best potential to go far in March year-in and year-out (Duke, UNC, Syracuse, Louisville). However, that still does not mean the conference is great. This is only the 2nd year of the reconfigured Big East, and the wins and RPI numbers speak for themselves. BTW, I am interested to see how Duke, Syracuse, Louisville all do when Coach K, Boeheim and Pitino are no longer there. Hard to replace a Hall-of-Fame coach.

[mufan2003]

There really weren't any true marquee teams. Providence, Syracuse, and Georgetown were all well regarded, but it isn't like they were regularly battling Marquette, UCLA, UNC, and other truly top tier schools for titles. They were pretty regular in the tourney and had chances to go to the Final Four if things broke right, but they weren't really any more potent than Villanova is.

Georgetown became a beast in short order. Within 5 years they were a premier program, but while they got there in the 1980s they were not there in the 1970s before the founding of the Big East.


Great point. I think you have to give the reconfigured conference 4 to 5 years before analyzing the success of the 10-team Big East. Let the synergy with Fox Sports play out and new coaches go through a 4-year recruiting cycle marketing a "basketball only" conference. The good thing is that I sense a real partnership among the 10 teams in the Big East. All pull for each other in non-conference then want to kill each other come conference time. That, and Fox Sports doing a good job promoting the conference. I think the New Year's Eve Marathon was a great idea, the Inside the Big East show and advertising the Big East on NFL Sundays.

[TheSultan]

The Big East's emergence almost perfectly coincided with the emergence of ESPN too. I'm not sure that scenario can be perfectly duplicated again.

[Goose85]

One thing that really helps a school achieve that marquee status, in addition to winning, is a recognizable championship coach with a long track record of winning at the school.
Old Big East had John Thompson, Carneseca, Massimino, Boheim, Calhoun.
Newer Big East had Pitino, Boheim, Calhoun, JT3, Huggins, and to a lesser extent Wright, Dixon, Buzz.

Doesn't mean winning it all multiple times, but having a title and staying long term at the school while creating the perception of always being a contender nationally.

Top level / Considered Marquee Teams
Kentucky - Calipari (1 national title)
Duke - Coach K (multiple titles)
Louisville - Pitino (won titles at both KY and Louisville)
Kansas - Self (1 title)
Michigan State - Izzo (1 title)
Syracuse - Boheim (1 title)
North Carolina - Williams (2 titles)
UConn - Calhoun (3 titles) followed by Ollie (1 title)

Close - But Not Marquee
Arizona (no title since Lute)
Florida (Donovan won 2, but I don't think Florida is a marquee team)
UCLA (legacy has juice, but no longer marquee)
Indiana (legacy has juice, but no longer marquee)

In addition to some deep NCAA runs, the Big East needs winning programs with coaching stability. Win a national title and Jay Wright would be there.

[ValiantSailor]

Honest question:

In the old Big East, and I mean when the conference first started, who were considered the marquee teams?


Georgetown, Syracuse, and St John's. Later Pitt.

VS

[MUMac]

Georgetown, Syracuse, and St John's. Later Pitt.

VS

Not when the BE first started. Georgetown was just making a name for itsef, but still in its infancy, but Georgetown had not been to the Sweet 16 or beyond since 1943, prior to the start of the BE. Cuse was further along, with a few Sweet 16's and had some years in the 60's. Dave Bing was the name that everyone associated Cuse with. Cuse was just getting rolling. St. Johns had Louie and was the name and draw of the league from the start. I would also include Providence, especially coming off of the Dave Gavitt era. Pitt came in a few years after the start, but was not the name at the beginning. They likely benefited more from the BE initially, than the BE benefited from them.

Crisco was comparing inception of the old BE to the new BE. I would say that it was St. Johns, Providence and Cuse that were the names at the time. And their names were not synonymous to what they are today. They were not the draw that other name programs were in the late 70's. I would say they were analogous to today's BE.

[CaribouJim]

Cuse did make the FF in '75 in Roy Danforth's last year. SU has been in the FF once per decade since the '70's - pretty impressive.

Can't believe MU played UK in the first game that year before seeding.

Didn't G-Town make a decent run prior to the '82 championship game with a group of relative no names - I was thinking it was '75, but they lost their first game too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_NCAA_Men%27s_Division_I_Basketball_Tournament

[Goose85]

Cuse did make the FF in '75 in Roy Danforth's last year. SU has been in the FF once per decade since the '70's - pretty impressive.

Can't believe MU played UK in the first game that year before seeding.

Didn't G-Town make a decent run prior to the '82 championship game with a group of relative no names - I was thinking it was '75, but they lost their first game too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_NCAA_Men%27s_Division_I_Basketball_Tournament

Some interesting / big time coaching names in that group of 32 teams.

[CaribouJim]

G-town did make the Elite 8 in '80 losing to Ronnie Lester and Iowa by one but that was after the start of the BE, not before as I had thought - Sleepy Floyd was the only sexy name on that team. That was a fun FF - Lester was lightning quick - too bad he blew out his knee.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/postseason/1980-ncaa.html

[79warrior]

One thing that really helps a school achieve that marquee status, in addition to winning, is a recognizable championship coach with a long track record of winning at the school.
Old Big East had John Thompson, Carneseca, Massimino, Boheim, Calhoun.
Newer Big East had Pitino, Boheim, Calhoun, JT3, Huggins, and to a lesser extent Wright, Dixon, Buzz.

Doesn't mean winning it all multiple times, but having a title and staying long term at the school while creating the perception of always being a contender nationally.

Top level / Considered Marquee Teams
Kentucky - Calipari (1 national title)
Duke - Coach K (multiple titles)
Louisville - Pitino (won titles at both KY and Louisville)
Kansas - Self (1 title)
Michigan State - Izzo (1 title)
Syracuse - Boheim (1 title)
North Carolina - Williams (2 titles)
UConn - Calhoun (3 titles) followed by Ollie (1 title)

Close - But Not Marquee
Arizona (no title since Lute)
Florida (Donovan won 2, but I don't think Florida is a marquee team)
UCLA (legacy has juice, but no longer marquee)
Indiana (legacy has juice, but no longer marquee)

In addition to some deep NCAA runs, the Big East needs winning programs with coaching stability. Win a national title and Jay Wright would be there.


No question, Arizona is is a marquee program.

[Markedman]

Big East has now edged out Big 12 as #1 RPI conference....at least for today......

http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2015/conferencerpi

[Goose85]

Big East has now edged out Big 12 as #1 RPI conference....at least for today......

http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2015/conferencerpi

Big East has 7 top 40 teams, with the other three being Depaul at 174, Creighton at 138 and MU at 98.

By comparison,
The Big Ten has 2 top 40 teams and 12 teams outside the top 40, four of which are over 100.
The ACC has 4 top 40 teams and 11 teams outside top 40, five of which are over 100.

The Big East also the third best overall winning percentage (Big 12 and ACC are higher).

Pretty good so far.

[TedBaxter]

http://zagsblog.com/articles/joe-lunardi-has-8-big-east-teams-in-the-big-dance/#more-127108

Early. Lunardi has 8 Big East teams in his bracket.

[Markedman]

Based on how the teams are rated today(obviously things will change) MU is scheduled to play 17 games against the top 50........

[mufan2003]

http://zagsblog.com/articles/joe-lunardi-has-8-big-east-teams-in-the-big-dance/#more-127108

Early. Lunardi has 8 Big East teams in his bracket.

It really has been a great 2nd year of the new 10-team Big East. If the #1 and #2 seeds in this article play out, I would love to see #1 Wisconsin play #2 Villanova in an Elite 8 game (although I would be glad to see Bucky upset earlier in the tournament). Ochefu is not as good as Kaminsky, but he is 6'11" and can get up and down the court, he has improved a lot (he had 24 points and 19 boards in his first Big East game). JayVaughn Pinkston against Nigel Hayes, two strong players. Then the 1,2,3 positions...Villanova's group (Arcidiacono, Hilliard, Ennis, Hart, Booth) against Wisconsin's (Jackson, Gasser, Dekker, Koenig). Then wild card players like Villanova's Kris Jenkins against Wisconsin's Duje Dukan....two players that can shoot the 3 and play either the 3 or 4 position.