Minority View

[Phantom Warrior]

I'm pretty sure most other posters on this board will disagree, but I honestly believe we will have a more successful team this year sans Mayo than we would have had with him. There will, of course, be no way to know one way or the other, but that's how I see it.

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

I think a better question is, will this team do better than last years?

[BLT]

With few big men, MU will need perimeter scorers especially at the guard spot. Todd was arguably the best at creating his own shot. Can Carlino, Duane and JJJ? I only think Duane can of those three at this point, and those may be rushed as a freshman. What little I have seen from Carlino is that he is a system guy. JJJ needs someone to set him up as best as I have witnessed although he could be that guy. Derrick and John? No? Deonte, yes. Juan, no. Sandy? A little much to ask.

So, who is going to be that go-to guy? The volume scorer? It is a big question mark on a team full of question marks.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Todd is a different kind of guy, no doubt. But taking away our best backcourt player and most able scorer is likely to make things difficult. As much as he didn't always seem to be the team guy, I think some people envision him as being more disruptive than he actually was.

I'm okay with next year being a rebuild. I'm okay with a losing record if we see things going in the right direction. But unless Duane or Jajuan are immediately ready to step up and contribute 13-16 ppg I find it very hard to believe we will have better on-court results without Todd than we would have had with him.

If this makes a long-term statement to the team and helps build chemistry over the long haul by allowing Wojo to say that he won't let anyone put their own interests ahead of the team, fine. I can see that having a positive ripple effect as our young team grows and matures while also forcing some of these young kids (like Deonte) to take a leadership role sooner rather than later. As far as actually helping in the W column in 2014-15? I think that's unlikely at best.

[Phantom Warrior]

JJJ is very capable of creating his own shot. So is Duane. And Deonte. I don't know about Carlino, and I don't know about Fischer.

Plus, JJJ, Deonte, and Duane are good passers who see the court and can deliver.

I think we will be better than most fans anticipate - if Fischer is healthy. If he's not, we could be in big trouble.

[TheSultan]

JJJ is very capable of creating his own shot. So is Duane.


You think they are. There has yet to be any evidence to suggest that this is the case for either one of them.

[Phantom Warrior]

Disagree. I saw JJJ create his own shot on quite a few occasions last year.

As for Duane, he has all the tools to create his own shot. If you watched him in high school, you know he is very quick, and that he has an excellent jump stop. He also can get off the floor following the jump stop. He is very capable of creating his own mid-range (12-16 feet) shot.

In my mind that was when Mayo was most effective - when he put the ball on the floor, drove into the lane, pulled up, and fired. Both JJJ and Duane are quicker than Mayo, and both have better hops/elevation. Neither is physically as strong as Mayo, but Mayo didn't create his mid-range shots by using strength.

If Wojo puts Fischer (or Taylor when he's in) on the low block and spreads the floor with the other four players, Burton, Johnson, and Duane will all be able to attack the lane and either take it all the way to the rack or pull up for the mid-range jumper. I have my doubts that Carlino or Dawson will be able to do this, and I know Derrick won't be able to, even with his impressive strength.

I think people are under-estimating JJJ and Duane.

[MUMac]

You think they are. There has yet to be any evidence to suggest that this is the case for either one of them.

JJJ could create his own shot, he did last year. He did not, though, have the green light as brent seemed to keep the reigns on him.

[CaribouJim]

Todd is a different kind of guy, no doubt. But taking away our best backcourt player and most able scorer is likely to make things difficult. As much as he didn't always seem to be the team guy, I think some people envision him as being more disruptive than he actually was.

I'm okay with next year being a rebuild. I'm okay with a losing record if we see things going in the right direction. But unless Duane or Jajuan are immediately ready to step up and contribute 13-16 ppg I find it very hard to believe we will have better on-court results without Todd than we would have had with him.

If this makes a long-term statement to the team and helps build chemistry over the long haul by allowing Wojo to say that he won't let anyone put their own interests ahead of the team, fine. I can see that having a positive ripple effect as our young team grows and matures while also forcing some of these young kids (like Deonte) to take a leadership role sooner rather than later. As far as actually helping in the W column in 2014-15? I think that's unlikely at best.

Pretty much my sentiments. On paper at least, Todd and Carlino could have vied for the best backcourt in the BE and I like the idea of JJJ, John and Duane getting quality minutes, but I think they would have anyway even if Todd had stayed as the team is lacking in bodies, especially in the first semester (and maybe longer depending on Fischer's shoulder) and it looks like MU will often be playing small ball this season so minutes would have been available anyway. However, Burton could be the X-Factor - he could become just a monster and the positive domino effect could make things real interesting and leave us wondering why DB's talents weren't used more last year.

I hope Phantom is right, but not sold just yet.

[Nukem2]

Pretty much my sentiments. On paper at least, Todd and Carlino could have vied for the best backcourt in the BE and I like the idea of JJJ, John and Duane getting quality minutes, but I think they would have anyway even if Todd had stayed as the team is lacking in bodies, especially in the first semester (and maybe longer depending on Fischer's shoulder) and it looks like MU will often be playing small ball this season so minutes would have been available anyway. However, Burton could be the X-Factor - he could become just a monster and the positive domino effect could make things real interesting and leave us wondering why DB's talents weren't used more last year.

I hope Phantom is right, but not sold just yet.Agree as well. Whatever the outcome, this is going to be a very interesting (and, hopefully, successful ) season.

[TheSultan]

JJJ could create his own shot, he did last year. He did not, though, have the green light as brent seemed to keep the reigns on him.


Against top competition, JJJ was largely non-existent.

[79warrior]

Against top competition, JJJ was largely non-existent.

I agree with you on this and earlier comments you made. I think many in the fan base are overestimating the contributions of Duane in particular and JJJ to a certain extent. It seems more hope than reality. With Todd leaving, we have lost virtually all of our scoring from last season. I just don't see how this team can end up with a better record than last season. This is a rebuild year for sure, and hopefuly wojo can reel in Mr Ellenson and continue to attract quality recruits.

[Mucrisco]

You need shooters on the floor in order to spread the lane, especially with someone on the low block. If you put the post on the weak side block like on the dribble drive motion, then you would have more spacing. If you set a high ball screen with the post, like what Duke does, that will create mismatches and driving lanes.

[TheSultan]

I think Buzz the GM was more responsible last year than Buzz the coach. His experienced, especially in the backcourt, wasn't very talented. And his most talented players, by recruiting rankings at least, wasn't very experienced. Vander leaving early....TJ Taylor and Jamail Jones not panning out...lack of a good point guard to take over for Junior. All of those thing were the root causes of last year.

He made the decision to go with experience. It didn't work.

[Nukem2]

I think Buzz the GM was more responsible last year than Buzz the coach. His experienced, especially in the backcourt, wasn't very talented. And his most talented players, by recruiting rankings at least, wasn't very experienced. Vander leaving early....TJ Taylor and Jamail Jones not panning out...lack of a good point guard to take over for Junior. All of those thing were the root causes of last year.

He made the decision to go with experience. It didn't work.Agree with your observation. Jamail, however, was more of a forward and worked out with the frontcourt guys in pre-game warmups I observed at the BC.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Jajuan and DuWil have proven nothing at this level. I hope they do, but until JJJ demonstrates he can create his shot against high level competition and until Duane shows he can excel against better than D3 high school opponents we don't really know.

With Mayo, I would have put the over/under for wins at 17.5, without him I'd say 13.5. If we have a sub-.500 season, it's okay, we're due a rebuild and with a short roster (both bodies and physical stature) it wouldn't be a surprise. I just think it's a bit over optimistic to think a team that was probably already in line to have some struggles will be better when you take the only guy who has proven he can score at a Big East level out of the lineup.

[Nukem2]

Jajuan and DuWil have proven nothing at this level. I hope they do, but until JJJ demonstrates he can create his shot against high level competition and until Duane shows he can excel against better than D3 high school opponents we don't really know.

With Mayo, I would have put the over/under for wins at 17.5, without him I'd say 13.5. If we have a sub-.500 season, it's okay, we're due a rebuild and with a short roster (both bodies and physical stature) it wouldn't be a surprise. I just think it's a bit over optimistic to think a team that was probably already in line to have some struggles will be better when you take the only guy who has proven he can score at a Big East level out of the lineup.I suspect that JJJ and Duane will do fine offensively given ample opportunity. More concerned about their defense and their ability to grab some rebounds on this rather smallish team. There certainly will be a lot of challenges this season for everyone.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

I hope they do. I just think it's premature to assume success for them before they do it. We've seen unrealized expectations for E-Will, Jones, Juan, JJJ, Mayo (repeatedly), Jamil, Derrick, and numerous other players over the years. I hope those kids can meet the hype and hope we have for them, but assuming they can replicate Mayo's production might not be fair to the team or the players.

[Nukem2]

I hope they do. I just think it's premature to assume success for them before they do it. We've seen unrealized expectations for E-Will, Jones, Juan, JJJ, Mayo (repeatedly), Jamil, Derrick, and numerous other players over the years. I hope those kids can meet the hype and hope we have for them, but assuming they can replicate Mayo's production might not be fair to the team or the players.In any event, we certainly are going to find out what these guys are made of in short order. Guess we need to be cautiously optimistic.

[MUMac]

Against top competition, JJJ was largely non-existent.

Non existent because he did not play. brent's decision and it was based on his defense, not offense. That does not mean he could not create his own shot.

[79warrior]

Non existent because he did not play. brent's decision and it was based on his defense, not offense. That does not mean he could not create his own shot.

I have news for you, no player will get major minutes from Wojo without playing D. JJJ needs to step up that part of his game.

[Nukem2]

I have news for you, no player will get major minutes from Wojo without playing D. JJJ needs to step up that part of his game.
True. But, I think Mac was just referring specifically to JJJ's ability to create his own shot. Obviously, other factors enter in relative to PT.

[Goose85]

Buzz had a pretty complicated defense from what I understand.
Depending on the defense Wojo employs, if it is less complcated, then it may be easier for young guys to grasp and execute, opening the door for more playing time early for the young guys.

[Nukem2]

Buzz had a pretty complicated defense from what I understand.
Depending on the defense Wojo employs, if it is less complcated, then it may be easier for young guys to grasp and execute, opening the door for more playing time early for the young guys.That certainly is my hope. Buzz's protect the paint help defense was hard to master for young guys.

[MUMac]

I have news for you, no player will get major minutes from Wojo without playing D. JJJ needs to step up that part of his game.

Fine. That wasn't the comment that was being discussed, but thanks anyway.

[CaribouJim]

I have news for you, no player will get major minutes from Wojo without playing D. JJJ needs to step up that part of his game.

I vehemently disagree. That experiment was a disaster last year. So long as net, net you have decent overall D collectively you're fine. Even in those cases where you have less than stellar D you can still win depending on how effective your offense is.

Why can a player be an absolute zero on offense and decent on D and be looked upon as being an honorable, "scrappy" player where a player who is stellar on offense but less so on D be considered a lazy a$$ sloth who needs to be glued to the bench. Watch a game where Doug Collins is an analyst and hear him talk about how a good offense helps your defense.

I'm sorry, but it was a basketball mortal sin as far as I am concerned that Burton, and to a lesser extent JJJ, sat way too much last year.

I am confident that Wojo will put the best "team" out there where their skills complement each other. He will NOT put his 5 best defenders out there at the expense of guys that can put it in the basket. And anyway, he probably can't with such shortened roster.

[BLT]

I see JJJ like Reggie Miller where teams ran pick and rolls to get him open with curls or dribble penetration for a pull up. Immensely talented but can he create his own shots? Sounds like some of the experts here (and I mean that) have seen that. I have in spots but not sure it is a strength. I could be wrong. The GW game was his best. Tons of talent and now the door is open. Wojo is obviously convinced.

As for defense, I think Wojo is all about playing straight up man. More about effort and communication than zones within man, rotations and switchables.

[warriorfan4life]

I think that JJJ excels offensively in the open court, but is also capable of creating his own shot in the half-court and was able to score at all three levels in high school. Due to his lack of PT last year, he will also have some growing pains, but I think can be a very effective 2/3 at this level.

[TheSultan]

Non existent because he did not play. brent's decision and it was based on his defense, not offense. That does not mean he could not create his own shot.



After JJJ put together solid back to back games against ASU and Fullerton, he got nine minutes v. SDSU...nothing. Ten v. UW...2 rebs, 1 asst. 7 v. NM...nothing. 14 v. Creighton...4 points. 14 v. Xavier...one rebound, one assist.

Buzz gave JJJ a chance, but he disappeared against quality competition.

[Nukem2]

After JJJ put together solid back to back games against ASU and Fullerton, he got nine minutes v. SDSU...nothing. Ten v. UW...2 rebs, 1 asst. 7 v. NM...nothing. 14 v. Creighton...4 points. 14 v. Xavier...one rebound, one assist.

Buzz gave JJJ a chance, but he disappeared against quality competition.
That was last year. Now, the chalkboard has been erased and it's a new season. Obviously, JJJ did not fit what Buzz was striving for. We move on. JJJ does have some obvious talents and skills.

[MUMac]

After JJJ put together solid back to back games against ASU and Fullerton, he got nine minutes v. SDSU...nothing. Ten v. UW...2 rebs, 1 asst. 7 v. NM...nothing. 14 v. Creighton...4 points. 14 v. Xavier...one rebound, one assist.

Buzz gave JJJ a chance, but he disappeared against quality competition.

Yeah, you are right. It was the offense why JJJ did not see the court. All the arguments last season about his defense being the reason, but he had offense, were off base. Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

[79warrior]

Fine. That wasn't the comment that was being discussed, but thanks anyway.

I guess I read it wrong. I thought you said it was Brent's decision and it was based on his defense.

[TheSultan]

Yeah, you are right. It was the offense why JJJ did not see the court. All the arguments last season about his defense being the reason, but he had offense, were off base. Yeah, right. :rolleyes:


Roll your eyes all you want. The stats speak for themselves.

[MUMac]

Roll your eyes all you want. The stats speak for themselves.

Nah, you just are not worth it.

[TheSultan]

Ever hear the saying that "stats are for losers"? A lot of truth in that statement and applicable here as well.

I watched the games, as I guess you only need stats. JJJ struggled on the court because of his D. brent limited his minutes because of that. It impacted his game overall. But yes, I saw he could create - even against better competition. I watched the games and did not wait for the stats. But, whatever. Damn, you are one obnoxious poster.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


I too watched every game and here is what I saw...that JJJ hung out a lot behind the three point line against teams like SDSU...UW...Xavier and made no impact whatsoever. Since he struggled on the defensive side, he really brought nothing to the table. Therefore it was pretty easy for Buzz to stick him to the bench.

Regardless I am sure he will improve this year.

[warriorfan4life]

That was last year. Now, the chalkboard has been erased and it's a new season. Obviously, JJJ did not fit what Buzz was striving for. We move on. JJJ does have some obvious talents and skills.

The thing is, JJJ would have been a monster the way we played in 2011-2012 and 2008-2009 with DJ healthy. I would not mind it if Wojo pressed some next year, even though we do not have a rim protector at the 5.

[CaribouJim]

After JJJ put together solid back to back games against ASU and Fullerton, he got nine minutes v. SDSU...nothing. Ten v. UW...2 rebs, 1 asst. 7 v. NM...nothing. 14 v. Creighton...4 points. 14 v. Xavier...one rebound, one assist.

Buzz gave JJJ a chance, but he disappeared against quality competition.

...and our 3rd year point guard in those same 5 games: SDSU 9 pts. 3 assists 4 T/O's in 33 minutes...UW 3 pts. 1 assist 2 T/O's in 39 minutes...NM 5 pts. 3 assists 2 T/O's in 25 minutes...CU 2 pts. 1 assist 0 T/O's in 27 minutes...Xavier 2 pts. 5 assists 0 T/O's in 22 minutes. Total - 146 minutes 21 points 13 assists 8 T/O's. Hardly a stellar performance against "quality competition" in those 5 games for a 3rd year player, yet his minutes actually rose the rest of the season with no real discernible increase in production for him or the team for that matter.

The consensus top 50 freshman gets 9 minutes after "solid back to back games" and after an admittedly milquetoast performance for the next 4 games, the consensus top 50 freshman doesn't get a real chance to redeem himself on a .500 team and yet the 3rd year player actually ends up leading the team in PT.

That's the way I look at it.

[TheSultan]

JJJ and Derrick Wilson play different positions. IMO Wilson only played as much as he did because MU had no better options at point. Dawson was worse and Duane got hurt. Again that goes to my point that Buzz the GM failed Buzz the coach.

[Nukem2]

JJJ and Derrick Wilson play different positions. IMO Wilson only played as much as he did because MU had no better options at point. Dawson was worse and Duane got hurt. Again that goes to my point that Buzz the GM failed Buzz the coach.Upon reflection, though, Buzz the GM thought in late March,2013 that he had Vander as a senior and a healthy frosh in Duane Wilson rather than 32 mpg from Derrick and a walk- on he thought was doing the Russell Wilson routine. Guess its hard to fault him for all of that.

[CaribouJim]

JJJ and Derrick Wilson play different positions. IMO Wilson only played as much as he did because MU had no better options at point. Dawson was worse and Duane got hurt. Again that goes to my point that Buzz the GM failed Buzz the coach.

IMO, there were other options. IMO Dawson was not "worse" than our starting PG. Dawson was more in sync with Buzz's prime directive - he was determined to feed the post and he did. Our starter had games where he rarely, rarely fed the post and even at least one where he did not feed the post once. John follows up 12 point, 4 assist, 1 TO in 31 minutes in a game on the road in a win against Georgetown in OT to 8 minutes in an OT loss at home against 'Nova.

I would have liked a backcourt of JD and Mayo with Jake coming off the bench. As bad as Todd's handle could be at times, he would have been a better option at the point when JD was not in the game.

At a minimum, Buzz could have done the offense/defense thing like he did with C.O. and D.G. with JD and Derrick. I refuse to believe that Buzz "had no better options".

[TheSultan]

Well Dawson's OR was less than Derrick's OR. Derrick also had a better EFG%, assist percentage, and was a better rebounder. Not that Derrick was good, but IMO Dawson wasn't better. And I think in retrospect it was obvious why Mayo didn't get more playing time including a chance to start.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

I think Dawson/DW has become a massive straw man for both sides. The Derrick bashers argue Dawson couldn't have been worse despite only having one really inspiring game. There's not nearly a big enough sample size to support Dawson't superiority and his offensive inefficiency actually indicates Buzz made the right choice.

But of course, those that feel Derrick was the right choice have the difficult point to defend that no one else was given a chance. Derrick was the best that played, but that's because he's the only one that played.

We'll never get an answer. If we couldn't determine it when Buzz was here, we certainly won't now that he's gone or going forward. Just one more reason we need games to start, to put these silly arguments in the past.