UNC - Outside the Lines

[Phantom Warrior]

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/11036924/former-north-carolina-basketball-star-rashad-mccants-says-took-sham-classes

[CaribouJim]

Should be interesting to watch today, but I just can't believe Ol' Roy would let something like that happen.:rolleyes:

I think this will be his last year coaching and I'm thinking this regardless of this controversy - he is just starting to look old and tired.

[TheSultan]

Not sure McCants is a believable witness.

[MUAlphaBangura]

Not sure McCants is a believable witness.

Does he have a reason to lie?

[TheSultan]

Does he have a reason to lie?


Yes. He thinks that Roy Williams undermined his NBA career.

Example from three years ago:

http://www.frumpzilla.com/frumpzilla_site/articles/rashad-mccants-also-not-a-fan-of-roy-williams/

[CaribouJim]

Watching it now and it seems pretty believable to me.

[TheSultan]

And it might be completely true. I just have a problem giving a lot of credibility to McCants.

[jpvegas52]

McCants might or might not be credible, but there seems to be a lot of smoke at UNC. Roy will probably get a finger wagged in his face and UWM will get an extra year probation.

[The Reptile]

McCants might or might not be credible, but there seems to be a lot of smoke at UNC. Roy will probably get a finger wagged in his face and UWM will get an extra year probation.

Given everything that happened at UNC over years why would anyone question McCants? There's a lot of stink coming out of Chapel Hill - more than you realize. Read the link below and see how far UNC would go to win it all. I doubt it ends with these stories either. And I don't know how anyone could respect Roy or UNC athletics. Great school. Dirty athletic department and a disgrace to the state.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/09/12/2337008/unc-fundraiser-tami-hansbrough.html

[TheSultan]

Given everything that happened at UNC over years why would anyone question McCants?


Because McCants has ulterior motives. He may be right. He just isn't believable.

[MUMac]

Because McCants has ulterior motives. He may be right. He just isn't believable.

That line of logic would dismiss virtually anyone who comes out with information on a "scandal".

[TheSultan]

That line of logic would dismiss virtually anyone who comes out with information on a "scandal".


Actually it wouldn't. If someone like Sean May or Raymond Felton from that team came out and said similar things as McCants, I would be more apt to believe them. McCants has had a thing for Williams since he left UNC.

[CaribouJim]

Actually it wouldn't. If someone like Sean May or Raymond Felton from that team came out and said similar things as McCants, I would be more apt to believe them. McCants has had a thing for Williams since he left UNC.

People said the same thing about José Canseco, admittedly a knucklehead of biblical proportions, but he was substantively right about his steroid allegations. Kind of like the Oklahoma State football allegations - the accusers couldn't be trusted as they had an "ax to grind" or something like that. Lawsuits would fly left and right to disprove them. To my knowledge, I haven't heard of any lawsuits that have been filed.

[TheSultan]

People said the same thing about José Canseco, admittedly a knucklehead of biblical proportions, but he was substantively right about his steroid allegations. Kind of like the Oklahoma State football allegations - the accusers couldn't be trusted as they had an "ax to grind" or something like that. Lawsuits would fly left and right to disprove them. To my knowledge, I haven't heard of any lawsuits that have been filed.


Well that is why I said "he could be right." I just don't think he deserves to be taken at his word. *Who* makes the allegations, and how they might be motivated, makes a big difference. McCants believes that Williams undermined his draft status with the NBA and has repeatedly said so.

And the Oklahoma State allegations are probably not the best to use since the allegations have not only yet to be proved, but the entire article, including the author and the SI editorial process, has been severely discredited.

[CaribouJim]

Well that is why I said "he could be right." I just don't think he deserves to be taken at his word. *Who* makes the allegations, and how they might be motivated, makes a big difference. McCants believes that Williams undermined his draft status with the NBA and has repeatedly said so.

And the Oklahoma State allegations are probably not the best to use since the allegations have not only yet to be proved, but the entire article, including the author and the SI editorial process, has been severely discredited.

The S.I. article was discredited by some at the time including yourself when it was published yet I have yet to see any counterpoints to the evidence in the form of lawsuits and I highly, highly doubt you will. The S. I. article has weathered the test of time.

Same with A-Rod - screaming bloody murder about his allegations and lawsuits, until he recently and quietly pulled his lawsuit back and accepted his penalty.

[TheSultan]

The S.I. article was discredited by some at the time including yourself when it was published yet I have yet to see any counterpoints to the evidence in the form of lawsuits and I highly, highly doubt you will. The S. I. article has weathered the test of time.

Same with A-Rod - screaming bloody murder about his allegations and lawsuits, until he recently and quietly pulled his lawsuit back and accepted his penalty.


Completely different cases. Oklahoma State didn't file any lawsuits because they know they "won." (I served on a national committee with my colleague from OSU...this was a conscience decision on their part. He told me this while laughing BTW.) The author used to write for a OU fansite. Furthermore, many of the points the author made were discredited by multiple sources.

Here is one article:

http://deadspin.com/why-sis-oklahoma-state-series-sucked-the-inside-story-133730572

I mean, why would OSU file a lawsuit when they faced no punishment of any sort, and when the story left the headlines pretty much as soon as it was published? (Unlike Arod.)

[ValiantSailor]

So, other than being ignorant of any wrongdoing by his players, and certainly not culpable if there was any wrongdoing, has Roy been able to refute any of McCants' claims?

At what point does the HC's responsibility for the education of his players end? Seems Roy doesn't think he has any....

VS

[TheSultan]

So, other than being ignorant of any wrongdoing by his players, and certainly not culpable if there was any wrongdoing, has Roy been able to refute any of McCants' claims?


Well here is what Williams is saying:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/06/08/4962824/unc-coach-roy-williams-offers.html#.U5WvFPldWSo

I mean, he can't prove he didn't say something...he can't prove he didn't do something. So this is pretty much all he can do. (However I do think that having other players surrounding him is a little odd. Why use props? Just say what you need to say and let the words speak for themselves.)

And my point is that clearly something was wrong at UNC. What Williams knew, and how he used it in the McCants example, is the only thing I am questioning due to his history.

[ValiantSailor]

Seems like all Roy and UNC-CH need is a copy of his official transcript. Unfortunately, they won't release it because of some "convenient" (or bogus) reason.

Or maybe it's a CYA move.

VS

[The Reptile]

Because McCants has ulterior motives. He may be right. He just isn't believable.


He isn't believable? A UNC President and AD were dismissed due to academic fraud by the Athletic Department during Butch Davis' tenure. An African Studies professor received the same treatment as did an academic adviser for the football team. A whistle blower has come out saying that there were no requirements for the student athletes to uphold the student part of their title but you'll dismiss all of the proof because you don't believe McCants? I think that you're ignoring the facts of how dirty UNC is or are simply unfamiliar with the details of the story.

As for my opinion, I don't believe that this all started with the hiring of Butch Davis. He probably simply wanted to win football games and didn't want to deal with UNC's academics or academic standards. They probably showed him what they were doing in Basketball for Roy and told him that all would be fine, but it ultimately went badly. Now, the rest of the truth is coming out and while most of the ugliness is already on the table and those responsible for it are long gone Roy hasn't had his turn yet. So, better to out him in the summer and clean it up by October because after all, Roy won two titles at UNC and ESPN isn't going to kill their post Football cash cow. They'll call him out but they won't take him down.

[Goose85]

I am sure the NCAA will do the same thing with UNC as they did with Duke and Lance Thomas, nothing.

If I recall wasn't Julius Peppers one of the transcripts that was a the beginning of all this scandal? He played both football and basketball for UNC.

[CaribouJim]

Completely different cases. Oklahoma State didn't file any lawsuits because they know they "won." (I served on a national committee with my colleague from OSU...this was a conscience decision on their part. He told me this while laughing BTW.) The author used to write for a OU fansite. Furthermore, many of the points the author made were discredited by multiple sources.

Here is one article:

http://deadspin.com/why-sis-oklahoma-state-series-sucked-the-inside-story-133730572

I mean, why would OSU file a lawsuit when they faced no punishment of any sort, and when the story left the headlines pretty much as soon as it was published? (Unlike Arod.)

...and here is a counterpoint to deadspin:

http://www.shermanreport.com/why-deadspins-analysis-of-sis-oklahoma-state-series-really-sucked/

[TheSultan]

He isn't believable? A UNC President and AD were dismissed due to academic fraud by the Athletic Department during Butch Davis' tenure. An African Studies professor received the same treatment as did an academic adviser for the football team. A whistle blower has come out saying that there were no requirements for the student athletes to uphold the student part of their title but you'll dismiss all of the proof because you don't believe McCants? I think that you're ignoring the facts of how dirty UNC is or are simply unfamiliar with the details of the story.

As for my opinion, I don't believe that this all started with the hiring of Butch Davis. He probably simply wanted to win football games and didn't want to deal with UNC's academics or academic standards. They probably showed him what they were doing in Basketball for Roy and told him that all would be fine, but it ultimately went badly. Now, the rest of the truth is coming out and while most of the ugliness is already on the table and those responsible for it are long gone Roy hasn't had his turn yet. So, better to out him in the summer and clean it up by October because after all, Roy won two titles at UNC and ESPN isn't going to kill their post Football cash cow. They'll call him out but they won't take him down.


Perhaps you should take some time to read what I have written. Given McCants history with Roy Williams, he isn't believable. I'm not saying UNC is clean. I am also not saying Roy is innocent in the whole affair.

I have said given McCants history with Roy Williams, I don't believe him. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand.

[TheSultan]

...and here is a counterpoint to deadspin:

http://www.shermanreport.com/why-deadspins-analysis-of-sis-oklahoma-state-series-really-sucked/


Reads like an opinion piece. Really there is nothing substantive there at all.

[CaribouJim]

Perhaps you should take some time to read what I have written. Given McCants history with Roy Williams, he isn't believable. I'm not saying UNC is clean. I am also not saying Roy is innocent in the whole affair.

I have said given McCants history with Roy Williams, I don't believe him. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand.

...and why do you find it so hard to understand that even if someone has an ax to grind, and I'm not saying that he does - I don't know his motives, that they can't be telling the truth or would go and make something up like this, especially considering the recent history at UNC. He may be a knucklehead, I don't know, but that doesn't mean he is not sharing his experience truthfully with us.

.

[Nukem2]

...and why do you find it so hard to understand that even if someone has an ax to grind, and I'm not saying that he does - I don't know his motives, that they can't be telling the truth or would go and make something up like this, especially considering the recent history at UNC. He may be a knucklehead, I don't know, but that doesn't mean he is not sharing his experience truthfully with us.

.Or, he could be "embellishing" the "truth"...

[TheSultan]

...and why do you find it so hard to understand that even if someone has an ax to grind, and I'm not saying that he does - I don't know his motives, that they can't be telling the truth or would go and make something up like this, especially considering the recent history at UNC. He may be a knucklehead, I don't know, but that doesn't mean he is not sharing his experience truthfully with us.

.


And like the boy who cried wolf, he may be truthful this time. But I am choosing not to believe him.