Northwestern Players Start Union Movement

[Goose85]

I appears Northwestern players are pursing union for college athletes.


http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/eye-on-college-football/24422752/northwestern-players-start-union-movement-in-college-athletics

Aside from the hurdles faced with doing something like unionizing college athletes, the specific goals don’t seem way out of whack. I found numbers 8 through 11 to be pretty interesting.

According to NCPAnow.org, the group has 11 specific goals.
1. Minimize college athletes' brain trauma risks.
2. Raise the scholarship amount.
3. Prevent players from being stuck paying sports-related medical expenses.
4. Increase graduation rates.
5. Protect educational opportunities for student-athletes in good standing.
6. Prohibit universities from using a permanent injury suffered during athletics as a reason to reduce/eliminate a scholarship.
7. Establish and enforce uniform safety guidelines in all sports to help prevent serious injuries and avoidable deaths.
8. Eliminate restrictions on legitimate employment and players ability to directly benefit from commercial opportunities.
9. Prohibit the punishment of college athletes that have not committed a violation.
10. Guarantee that college athletes are granted an athletic release from their university if they wish to transfer schools.
11. Allow college athletes of all sports the ability to transfer schools one time without punishment.

[BLT]

Great...cannot wait for my tax bill to be lowered with all these new job earners!

[IWB]

Funny that Northwestern steps to the forefront. Probably the best example of a school that doesn't deserve the cash that the big conferences are raking in from TV & bowl games.

1) Already doing their best to ensure that.
2) Why don't you just call it a stipend?
3) Agree with this one.
4) Yep, the union will work hard on that.
5) What are they asking for here, that if a player quits he still gets his scholarship? Probably just asking for players not to be run off.
6) This is a joke. NCAA has a rule that players can remain on scholarship if they have a career ending injury and not have it count against the number.
7) Why don't you just suggest improvements?
8) The floodgates to the whore's market will open up. This will be bad.
9) Agree, but will be a tough one to enforce.
10) Yes and no. Sure, release them, but I have no issues with preventing some schools.
11) No dice. There are over 1,000 transfers a year without this rule. Add this rule and it will be like musical chairs, much like MLB & NBA. Schools will recruit current players and for Northwestern to say this? "Oh, I went to Northwestern but I am not good enough to play for Notre Dame, so I want to leave".

[Goose85]

I think 9 is interesting. Don't want to be punished for others violations. But then how do you punish cheaters?

Good point on the current number of transfers. Not sitting out a year would make it nuts in hoops, but I somewhat get it for football. In football most frosh redshirt, it is almost a given unless you are going to step in an play right away. If a kid later transfers they only get 3 years to play.

[Markedman]

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/2014/01/28/college-athletes-take-steps-to-form-labor-union/4959017/

[IWB]

Question for someone like Beluga on tax implications. Since the article in the Indy Star says, "Labor Union", key word being labor, would their scholarships and stipends now be taxable since they consider it 'labor'?

When you win a new car you have to pay taxes on it. So, if they are 'working' for their scholarships and stipends, wouldn't that be taxable income?

[TheSultan]

Yeah, I am not exactly sure how people who aren't legally employed can be in a labor union.

[unclejohn]

Funny that Northwestern steps to the forefront. Probably the best example of a school that doesn't deserve the cash that the big conferences are raking in from TV & bowl games.

1) Already doing their best to ensure that.
2) Why don't you just call it a stipend?
3) Agree with this one.
4) Yep, the union will work hard on that.
5) What are they asking for here, that if a player quits he still gets his scholarship? Probably just asking for players not to be run off.
6) This is a joke. NCAA has a rule that players can remain on scholarship if they have a career ending injury and not have it count against the number.
7) Why don't you just suggest improvements?
8) The floodgates to the whore's market will open up. This will be bad.
9) Agree, but will be a tough one to enforce.
10) Yes and no. Sure, release them, but I have no issues with preventing some schools.
11) No dice. There are over 1,000 transfers a year without this rule. Add this rule and it will be like musical chairs, much like MLB & NBA. Schools will recruit current players and for Northwestern to say this? "Oh, I went to Northwestern but I am not good enough to play for Notre Dame, so I want to leave".

Well, Northwestern had a very disappointing season this year, but they have made bowl games for the last four or five years, so I am not so sure about not deserving any of the money they make. Also, they serve a valuable purpose for the Big Ten, as it is an excellent university, which makes the rest of the conference look good.

Now, as for the suggestions, some of them you suggest that the NCAA is already doing. Fine. But I can see why a player's union would like some input in them. It is not just that the union would like new rules. The union would like to help make the rules, like they do in professional sports. Some of the ones you disagree with make some sense to me, like the suggestion that an athlete who incurs a permanent injury is taken care of. Yes, schools can keep them on scholarship, but does that mean that they have to? And what happens if a player winds up with a permanent disabling injury? Is he insured? Are you sure? I seem to recall the son of a former NFL player suing his university after he wound up paralyzed. There was a very good argument that it was the fault of the team's medical and training staff. Players typically can finish their educations, but that does not guarantee that they get one. Remember Jim Harbaugh's comments about Michigan's College of Dumb Athletes? Harbaugh, who I think has proven himself to be a pretty bright guy, had to fight to get a degree in an established major, and not in General Studies, which is where Michigan likes to stash football players. Unfortunately, such a degree often does not prepare a player to do anything except play football. I remember some Michigan alum suggesting that if Harbaugh had handled the matter more quietly, maybe he could have become the coach at Michigan one day. What that alum did not do was deny what Harbaugh was saying.

All of this is very preliminary. The union has not been recognized at Northwestern yet, much less been in a position to demand any changes. Some of this stuff may never come to pass, and at the earliest, it will take years. But perhaps it will in the future. And that might not be a bad thing. I recall hearing about the good old days when MLB players were part of the community, when they took public transportation to work, had jobs in the community in the off-season, and stayed with teams most of their careers. Great. But here was the downside. They had jobs in the off-season because they didn't make enough during the season to live on, despite the fact that many of the owners got pretty rich. They stayed with the same team because of the reserve clause, which meant that they were stuck with the same team until the team did not want them anymore. Owners refused to even consider changing the system until they lost in court. Would these changes ruin college athletics? Perhaps. Probably not. They might change it into something different than what it is today. Maybe that is not a bad thing. Maybe the university of Alabama should not be able to make countless millions off its football team, pay its coach more than anyone in the state, pay its players nothing at all, be free to cut them at any time, and be a mediocre university. Perhaps the citizens of Alabama would be better served if that was not the case.

[TheSultan]

Well stated Uncle John.

[DCwarrior]

I know it would open up a whole can of worms, but I really think a D-1 athlete should be able to profit off of his/her likeness. I just don't see why a kid can't charge for autographs or for personal appearances provided there's an audience for it, they document it to their school/NCAA, and it doesn't interfere with their school or sports schedule. I know Jonny Manziel was demonized in the media for what he did, but I don't see anything wrong with his actions. If a player rises to the stature he did, they should be able to make some money instead of just his school.

[IWB]

UJ - When it comes to the world of big money college football, Northwestern is a joke. Yes, they made it to a few bowl games. That isn't really all that hard. Schedule 4 weak teams for your non-conference games and then all you have to do is win two conference games and you are in a bowl game. That is a joke. This year is a perfect example. They won all four non-conference games - whoo hoo! Jumped up to #16 in the national rankings. Then they entered the conference season and lost 7 straight, until they finally played Illinois on the last week of the season. Finished 1-7 in the Big 10, yet were only one win away from a Bowl game. They haven't finished any better than 5-3 in the Big 10 over the last 10 years. That is hardly earning your share. I can't fins this year's split, but last year the Big 10 split $284 million, which works out to about $23.7 per team. That is for TV, Bowl games and NCAA tourney, which they have never received a bit to.

Not only does the Big 10 split TV money and Bowl money, but they also split gate money, something no one else in the nation does. So, they play at Michigan, they get half of Michigan's gate, so Michigan gives them about $3 million. If Michigan plays at Northwestern, Northwestern gives Michigan about $1.7 million.

Yep, Northwestern is pulling their weight.

No problem with the players needing input, that should be the way it is.

I agree that schools should not be able to dump a kid because of an injury, nor should the family be saddled with the costs of an injury.

Your example of Alabama - They do get scholarships, its not like they get nothing. I agree they should get a stipend, but if you play football at Alabama, and you win a title while you are there? That will not only look great on your resume, it will likely land you a job in the state.

DC - As far as the money goes, while it makes sense, any part of autograph signings etc, will bring in agents. I am against anything that has anything to do with agents. Suddenly these guys will be booked solid, blowing off study halls, classes etc. They need to remain students, and any type of profiting will take away from that. So the school makes money off of your jersey number, and makes money off of TV rights. Factor in the amount that it cost to recruit these kids, and you won't see a huge profit.

[MUMac]

UJ - When it comes to the world of big money college football, Northwestern is a joke. Yes, they made it to a few bowl games. That isn't really all that hard. Schedule 4 weak teams for your non-conference games and then all you have to do is win two conference games and you are in a bowl game. That is a joke. This year is a perfect example. They won all four non-conference games - whoo hoo! Jumped up to #16 in the national rankings. Then they entered the conference season and lost 7 straight, until they finally played Illinois on the last week of the season. Finished 1-7 in the Big 10, yet were only one win away from a Bowl game. They haven't finished any better than 5-3 in the Big 10 over the last 10 years. That is hardly earning your share. I can't fins this year's split, but last year the Big 10 split $284 million, which works out to about $23.7 per team. That is for TV, Bowl games and NCAA tourney, which they have never received a bit to.

Not only does the Big 10 split TV money and Bowl money, but they also split gate money, something no one else in the nation does. So, they play at Michigan, they get half of Michigan's gate, so Michigan gives them about $3 million. If Michigan plays at Northwestern, Northwestern gives Michigan about $1.7 million.

Yep, Northwestern is pulling their weight.

No problem with the players needing input, that should be the way it is.

I agree that schools should not be able to dump a kid because of an injury, nor should the family be saddled with the costs of an injury.

Your example of Alabama - They do get scholarships, its not like they get nothing. I agree they should get a stipend, but if you play football at Alabama, and you win a title while you are there? That will not only look great on your resume, it will likely land you a job in the state.

DC - As far as the money goes, while it makes sense, any part of autograph signings etc, will bring in agents. I am against anything that has anything to do with agents. Suddenly these guys will be booked solid, blowing off study halls, classes etc. They need to remain students, and any type of profiting will take away from that. So the school makes money off of your jersey number, and makes money off of TV rights. Factor in the amount that it cost to recruit these kids, and you won't see a huge profit.

A couple of things.

1. When Michigan (or anyone else) plays at Northwestern, nearly half the crowd is the visitors. That is how they make their gate - on the other schools fans.

2. In addition to the scholarship, they also get room and board (on full scholarship). In addition, they get gear. Clothes, jackets, shoes ... A ton of it, in fact. If they go to a bowl game, the shoe company gives them a gift. Win and it's a nicer gift. Win the conference - gift. Win the title - gift. What kind of gift? IPad's, computer games ... Yes, they don't get paid cash money (except for stipends on break and when traveling), but let's not act like they are desolate and get nothing.

[TheSultan]

A couple of things.

1. When Michigan (or anyone else) plays at Northwestern, nearly half the crowd is the visitors. That is how they make their gate - on the other schools fans.

2. In addition to the scholarship, they also get room and board (on full scholarship). In addition, they get gear. Clothes, jackets, shoes ... A ton of it, in fact. If they go to a bowl game, the shoe company gives them a gift. Win and it's a nicer gift. Win the conference - gift. Win the title - gift. What kind of gift? IPad's, computer games ... Yes, they don't get paid cash money (except for stipends on break and when traveling), but let's not act like they are desolate and get nothing.


The question though is do they get their true value. Let's face it the starting quarterback and the soccer player at State U are both getting the same scholarship, but if this were a true free market, one of them is going to get paid a bunch more.

That doesn't mean that I am advocating for that. It just is what the mindset is of some of the players involved.

[Goose85]

It may not matter at schools where players always live in school owned housing like MU hoops, but how do they work it in a place like Madison or others with football players living off campus? Can they pocket the difference if they find an apartment cheaper than student housing? Same with food allotments?

[unclejohn]

Northwestern had the season from hell this year. Yeah, they went 1-7. But they outplayed Ohio State and lost by ten after giving up a touchdown on the last play while trying a desperation play. They lost to Minnesota after their back-up QB through a late interception for a touchdown. They lost to Nebraska on a Hail Mary on the last play of the game. They lost to Iowa in OT. They lost to Michigan in OT after Michigan kicked a long tying field goal in a rushed play as time expired. Being the bright bunch that they are, Northwestern came up with more creative ways to lose games this season than I have ever seen. Northwestern is not going to challenge for the national championship any time soon, and they are never going to draw the crowds of Michigan or Ohio State. But since Pat Fitzgerald has coached them, they have consistently been a solid, contending team in the Big Ten. Just about every year, they have knocked off some ranked Big Ten opponent. Not bad for a school that is half to a third the size of their conference rivals, has no natural fan base outside of alumni, and does not have a school on campus to hide dumb jocks. But the important thing is that Northwestern has been part of the Big Ten from the beginning, Academically, it is excellent. The Big Ten does not have any bad schools. Well, maybe Nebraska. And I don't know if Rutgers is all that impressive. But the historical ones were all held together by being strong academic schools. Mostly the flagship land grant universities in their states, with Northwestern and University of Chicago thrown in. Northwestern is going nowhere, and the Big Ten is quite happy to have them.

But let's take a look at Alabama, or Kentucky for basketball, for that matter. Yes, their teams make lots of money and engender mad loyalty in the state. But is that what a university is supposed to do? Be a minor league sports franchise and a source of entertainment for state citizens who spell college with a K? Or in Kentucky's case, to investigate all the ways a university can get away with cheating? Unionizing the players would open up a whole can of worms, and it would have the potential to change college sports dramatically. Right now, Colter and friends claim that they are not after money, but one would suspect that somewhere down the line, somebody will be. But I do not know that change is a bad thing.

So far, I have been impressed by the comments from the players and from Northwestern. Colter made it clear that he and his teammates had no qualms with Northwestern. Northwestern of course issued a statement saying that it did not believe that its players were employees. Of course it did. What else could they say? Well, what else they did say was that the players raised important issues which need to be examined more fully. They're right.

[IWB]

A couple of things -

Mac - True, Northwestern games are 50% visiting crowd, but either way, in Big 10 conference games the two teams split the gate. Strange rule, found it when looking up the Bowl/TV payouts. Also agree on the "other stuff". The items they are now getting for bowl games is getting absurd. It used to be gym bags, hats, shirts, sweats.....now it is big screen tvs, iphones and anything else that the sponsors pony up for.

Goo - Yes, they pocket the extra. Say the room and board amount at UW Madison is $9,000 for 9 months and add in summer school for football players - you are looking at $12,000, or $1,000 per month. If 5 players get a house together and split rent and utilities, it could come out to $400 per month, so they pocket $600. This is how it has always been.

[IWB]

One area that the NCAA did clean up is in the books/fees. Back when I was in school, friends that played at a Big 10 school to the east and a major independent school would be able to go to the book store at the beginning of each semester to purchase what they needed for school....books, notebooks, pens, pencils, sweatshirts, hats, jacket for dad, sweatshirt for mom, t-shirts for brothers and sisters, blanket for grandma......

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

I know it's easy to bash NW football at this point, but is that really relevant to the discussion at all? Whether you're playing for Florida State at the top of the ACC and nation or Georgia State at the bottom of the Sun Belt, you are still putting yourself out there with potential long-term health risks largely for entertainment purposes.

Now I don't think that them becoming employees is necessarily the answer, and a smart student-athlete would take the former portion of that title seriously, but allowing the players to have representation at the table when they are the ONLY reason people are watching makes sense. No one is going to spend 3 hours watching Nick Saban and Charlie Strong stare at each other across the sidelines.

The athletes should definitely get a say in how injuries, especially injuries that have long-term effects, are handled. If you incur a documented knee injury playing football or basketball in college, I see nothing wrong with the school providing long-term medical coverage in case you need to get reconstructive surgery 20-30 years down the road. Allowing the athletes to have a say on how their academics are handled is also something I agree with. Not as a way to let bad students skate further, but to address increasing graduation rates and affording educational opportunities.

I do think the jobs, endorsements, and transfer requests open a huge can of worms, but there are ways some of this could be addressed. Add in a set living allowance for scholarship athletes?

Quite simply, there are a number of valid points the Northwestern kids raise. I don't think forming a union is necessarily the answer, but getting them a seat at the table certainly isn't a bad idea, especially when networks are literally making billions off these kids.

[TheSultan]

I do think the jobs, endorsements, and transfer requests open a huge can of worms, but there are ways some of this could be addressed. Add in a set living allowance for scholarship athletes?


To be honest, I don't know necessarily what the big deal is about allowing a student athlete to endorse items, etc. To be able to do this within certain regulations that are monitored by the school might be a better solution than an out and out ban.

Really, I don't care all that much if a MU basketball player takes 3 hours on a Saturday to do an autograph show and make some $$$. If the funds for something like that are funneled through the school, to ensure that the proper taxes are withdrawn and the paperwork is filed, then I really am having trouble finding what the true harm is here.

[IWB]

77 - Northwestern is relevant to the discussion because they are the ones trying to unionize. They are the ones asking for endorsement capabilities, where they stand to gain the absolute least.

Next - yes, the players should have a say in how injuries are handled, scholarships etc., but asking to unionize/become employees is a joke.

They want cash for using their likenesses? So players at Northwestern want to be paid when their picture appears on a billboard promoting season ticket sales, so who pays them, the school? BS - School should be able to advertise to promote their games, ticket sales etc.

I was all for the players getting stipends, but the more they ask for endorsements, agents etc., I say forget it.

[IWB]

To be honest, I don't know necessarily what the big deal is about allowing a student athlete to endorse items, etc. To be able to do this within certain regulations that are monitored by the school might be a better solution than an out and out ban.

Really, I don't care all that much if a MU basketball player takes 3 hours on a Saturday to do an autograph show and make some $$$. If the funds for something like that are funneled through the school, to ensure that the proper taxes are withdrawn and the paperwork is filed, then I really am having trouble finding what the true harm is here.

What you describe is fine, but that will not be reality. Endorsements will bring agents. Agents will bring issues. Sure, Johnny football can get a 3 hour autograph signing on Saturday, but now XBox is offering $10k for a dinner on Tuesday night. Oh, and an autograph show in Vegas wants him for Sunday - includes a hotel suite in Vegas for the weekend. Oh, and can you do an appearance at the Nike conference next week? It all opens up, and while it sounds nice and innocent, top dollar will win out and it won't stop.

[Goose85]

To be honest, I don't know necessarily what the big deal is about allowing a student athlete to endorse items, etc. To be able to do this within certain regulations that are monitored by the school might be a better solution than an out and out ban.

Really, I don't care all that much if a MU basketball player takes 3 hours on a Saturday to do an autograph show and make some $$$. If the funds for something like that are funneled through the school, to ensure that the proper taxes are withdrawn and the paperwork is filed, then I really am having trouble finding what the true harm is here.

Tough call as this is where things can get crazy. So let's say you have some boosters that want to pay a kid to come to your school (happens now all the time, but is illegal). Now you tell the kid, as soon as you are on campus we are having a very exclusive autograph event for you. There will be 10 people there and they will each pay you $25,000 for a couple autographs and some pictures. This would now be legal and the kid pockets $250K.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

77 - Northwestern is relevant to the discussion because they are the ones trying to unionize. They are the ones asking for endorsement capabilities, where they stand to gain the absolute least.

Next - yes, the players should have a say in how injuries are handled, scholarships etc., but asking to unionize/become employees is a joke.

They want cash for using their likenesses? So players at Northwestern want to be paid when their picture appears on a billboard promoting season ticket sales, so who pays them, the school? BS - School should be able to advertise to promote their games, ticket sales etc.

I was all for the players getting stipends, but the more they ask for endorsements, agents etc., I say forget it.

I think it's somewhat naive to think the long-term of this has anything to do with Northwestern, aside from where it started. If NW gets it going, the precedent set would spread to every D1 football and basketball program in the country. Northwestern's status is irrelevant in the big picture. It is the status of marketable collegiate sports as a whole that matter.

I agree that unionizing probably isn't where this will head, but they have to start somewhere.

As far as endorsements...it's a slippery slope. Jameis Winston gets promised a monthly autograph session by a wealthy booster who agrees to put on card shows as a front to get thousands of dollars into Winston's pocket. The guy that owns a pizza place in Lawrence pays a truckload of money to Andrew Wiggins for commercial appearances to make sure he comes to Kansas. I really think student athletes have to be handled differently if you are going to keep any honesty in the "student" part.

The other problem is these endorsements will almost automatically lead to preferential treatment. If you allow athletes to endorse, the stars will make money while the offensive linemen and lower division schools will still be in the same state they are now. Maybe create a fund that the endorsement money goes into and is equally redistributed to all student athletes? That way if Jameis Winston makes money, it goes to the punter, the softball players, maybe even people at other schools?

I don't know the answer, but I applaud the kids at Northwestern for getting the ball rolling.

Oh...and agents should be a 100% non-starter, as should the one-time free transfer. Those two things would destroy college athletics as we know them.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Also, I don't think the school themselves should be prohibited from marketing their product. If Northwestern wants to put Kain Colter on a billboard to get people to the game, they should be able to use what their media department creates to do that.

[TheSultan]

What you describe is fine, but that will not be reality. Endorsements will bring agents. Agents will bring issues. Sure, Johnny football can get a 3 hour autograph signing on Saturday, but now XBox is offering $10k for a dinner on Tuesday night. Oh, and an autograph show in Vegas wants him for Sunday - includes a hotel suite in Vegas for the weekend. Oh, and can you do an appearance at the Nike conference next week? It all opens up, and while it sounds nice and innocent, top dollar will win out and it won't stop.


OK, but if you put time and dollar limits on it, perhaps that would work?

Look, I understand the issues that would arise here. But really I am getting a little tired of the disconnect in college sports. Schools can switch conferences to make more $$$, have games throughout the week to accommodate television, but cause the student athlete to be on the road more. Furthermore a player can look in the stands to see an "anonymous" jersey with their number (but not name) on it, and know that it is making money for the school. And meanwhile a coach is pocketing millions in salaries, endorsements, etc. So there is absolutely no limits to the revenue that a college or university brings in.

Yeah I know the athlete gets a free education. But let's be honest here - certain athletes are worth a hell of a lot more to a school than the value of a free education. And this disparity keeps growing and growing.

So I've just come to the conclusion that I don't really mind if player is getting free tatoos...or making money from autograph sessions...or getting slipped a few hundred $$ now and then. The outrage is no longer there for me.

[IWB]

77 - I know it is naive to think Northwestern has anything in this long term, that was point point in the first place, that the most irrelevant BCS school is the one that got things started. Would not be shocked at all if the Big 10 commish was the one who urged them to do it.

Sultan - I agree that is has gotten out of hand with the daily games, the conference switching etc, but the cost of the scholarship is not all that goes into it. You have to look at the recruiting budget. Take a look at Michigan. In 2011 they spent $577k on recruiting. Let's say they landed 20 kids. That is over $28k per kid. Now add in 5 years of a $55k per year tuition/fees/expenses. That comes to over $300,000 per kid.

That is a hell of a lot of money for one kid that is with you for his career. When you look at it that way, can anyone really say they need more? This doesn't include food for 5 years either.

[TheSultan]

Jim, well first of all, you can't really put the recruiting costs an assign them to a player. Those are like search costs.

But with that being said, it really isn't an issue of "need." I mean I don't need more money than I make now. However I wouldn't mind more money. And if another employer wants to pay me more, then they can. It's what the market can bear. Now of course I know you can't have a pure open market on these guys, but I can't really complain about a guy who would like to make money on the side because he can.

[IWB]

I think you can include recruiting costs because those are directly related to your specific players. People keep saying they need more that the tuition cost, while not realizing how much schools are really spending on these kids - from recruitment through graduation.

If Buzz took a private jet down to see Ahmed Hill 5 times, you can easily say that MU spent $XYZ to recruit Ahmed Hill. That should factor into the "transfer without penalty" argument. Sure, it sucks that a coach can leave at any time, but when you spend $50 k recruiting a kid, should the school be protected to a degree? Different argument I know, but it all ties in to what the Northwestern players are asking for.

[IWB]

One more thing on the "no name jersey sales". How much profit is in each jersey? How much does Nike get, how much does the school get (bookstore, program)? How much does the student get?

Also, when do you track those sales? From the start of the season? How do you treat the off season? With a school like MU, when does it transfer from DJO to Jamal Ferguson to Duane Wilson? Last year people were still buying Marquette #1 jerseys. Why? Because they were really into Jamal Ferguson's potential or because they were still huge DJO fans? Can anyone prove that they were purchased because of Ferguson? Can anyone prove that they were purchased because of DJO? Can anyone prove that Duane Wilson deserves them now or are people still buying them because of DJO?

Look at football - 100+ kids. Say Michigan's QB is #12. So is the redshirt freshman DB that they have. How do you allocate? If the redshirt freshman's parents & family buy 20 #12 jerseys, should the starting QB profit?

[GOMU1104]

If it is too hard to allocate, dont produce/sell any jerseys with current player's numbers. Would be tough for football...not so much for basketball.

[unclejohn]

Wait a minute. The Big Ten urged the Northwestern players to try and unionize? Why? Northwestern isn't even encouraging them to do that, although apparently, one of Colter's profs did. What I find interesting are the comments from lots of labor law experts. Most are saying that the players have little chance of being recognized as employees, but then go on to say that they have some serious concerns that need to be addressed soon. I do not know how they get resolved, but they are going to get addressed. And some of the financial complaints are pretty valid. So maybe Marquette does not make all that much selling a jersey, although if they do not mark it up at least 100%, I would be shocked. But what about the NCAA making money off Ed O'Bannon's likeness decades after he has left school, with none of the money coming to him?

[TheSultan]

Nowhere near as difficult as you make it out to be. Pool the profits in any given year, negotiate a split with the school, and distribute the rest amongst the team members on the team that year. You make things sound like impossibilities, but there is a way to figure this stuff out. It's done in professional sports all of the time.

[Goose85]

I think the injury thing could be tough too. Doctors are seeing more injuries in younger kids that normally they wouldn't see until someone is much older.

For example, kids are playing soccer year round which puts a pounding on the same joints, etc year round for many years. Knee injuries among younger kids are more common.

Let's say a college soccer player is just running, cuts weird and blows his knee. No collision, nothing, the knee just goes. Was this injury due to his playing college soccer, or was it the result of playing soccer non stop since the kid was 5? Is the college on the hook for knee replacement when the person is 50? Would this only apply to full ride athletes? Sports like soccer can give half schollies and depend on walkons too due to schollie restrictions.

I know it is just a start and I think to an extent a good idea to have college athlete representation. It will be interesting to see where this thing goes.

[IWB]

UJ - No, I don't think that the Big 10 commish told them to do it, but it honestly wouldn't shock me. Barry Alvarez went off on a tangent about the haves and have nots a good 4-5 months before the Big 10 commish took on that concept. These guys are talking about this stuff behind the scenes every day. And what would push the envelope even further? If the athletes spoke up. Then the big 5 conferences and the NCAA could say look, lets get this on the table before things get out of control. And wouldn't it look more legitimate if a school like Northwestern brought this up as opposed to Ohio State or Texas? Again, I know I am fishing with a conspiracy theory here, but this has been all over the place and Northwestern of all schools comes up with the athletes' side? Come on, I just don't buy it. Stanford? Notre Dame? Sure, but Northwestern?

O'Bannon - I am so sick of this. Yes, he has a legitimate gripe, but had he not been a total bust in the NBA and made millions in the league - this suit would never have been filed.

Sultan - it is more difficult than just pooling profits. First off, in the pros the jerseys have specific names on them. Much easier to track. Next - just pooling profits? Ok, so then what about the losses? Do they get split too? Many major college football programs are operating at a loss. Oh, but the jersey sales should be split up - what about all of the other bills? Jersey sales are a small portion of the overall nut, but players want a piece of that because it is all positive. Well - look at the discount racks. Right now every sporting goods store in Wisconsin is selling all of the leftover Charles Woodson and Greg Jennings jerseys well below cost. Dunham's has hundreds of them. So, say that Russell Wilson transfers from NC State to Wisconsin. The thousands of NC State Russell Wilson jerseys are now worthless and have to be sold at 1/2 the cost. Who eats that? Wilson? The next class that divvys up the profits? Who? Far fetched? Yes, but also very real.

[GOMU1104]

The apparel companies take the risk, as they do in every other sport.

The pros split jersey sales evenly among everyone in the Union.

[TheSultan]

The apparel companies take the risk, as they do in every other sport.

The pros split jersey sales evenly among everyone in the Union.


Yes. Lebron jersey sales don't go to Lebron. They are split with everyone who is active in the union at any given time.

Look IWB, I appreciate the questions you are asking. But it's not as though they would be building things from scratch here. There's a model that could easily be adopted with modifications by the NCAA.

[IWB]

The apparel companies take the risk, as they do in every other sport.

The pros split jersey sales evenly among everyone in the Union.

So when the book store orders 500 more #1 jerseys from the apparel company and they don't sell, the apparel company eats them? I don't think so. I highly doubt Reebok is eating the cost of all of those Packers jerseys at Dunham's, Kohl's, Sports Authority etc.

Did not know the pros split all jersey sales among everyone in the union - thanks for clearing that up.

[GOMU1104]

So when the book store orders 500 more #1 jerseys from the apparel company and they don't sell, the apparel company eats them? I don't think so. I highly doubt Reebok is eating the cost of all of those Packers jerseys at Dunham's, Kohl's, Sports Authority etc.

Did not know the pros split all jersey sales among everyone in the union - thanks for clearing that up.

You're right, the stores do take on that cost, but the companies take on the costs of production. Either way, it's not the player's problem.

[IWB]

So you are saying players are paid on what is produced and not what is sold?

Sultan - I hear you, but we are not talking about Lebron jerseys, we are talking college jerseys. There are millions of Lebron jerseys sold each year. There are maybe a few thousand Michigan football jerseys sold each year. When it comes to splitting them up, Michigan has about 125 players on their team. When it all shakes out, is it really worth the hassles? And using the Ed O'Bannon argument, are Michigan fans buying the #1 jersey for the current player or for a former All-American?

If they want to be paid for jersey sales, then start taxing what they make like the rest of the nation. Go to a bowl game and get a big screen, ipod, ipad, beats headphones etc - great, then its just like appearing on the price is right and you get taxed on all of it. You do know that NFL players get taxed on their Super Bowl rings, right? How about we start taxing kids for their Big East title rings, Sweet 16 rings etc? Suddenly the union and jersey sales start sounding like a bad idea.

How about we stop all of the crap right now, give them a stipend of $400 per month and be done with it? No agents, no big vs small schools, no BCS and the rest.

[GOMU1104]

Don't they get a stipend as a part of their scholarship, as well as a good amount of meal money?

[IWB]

No, they do not get a stipend or a 'good amount of meal money'. Those two concepts are actually intertwined. Here is where the stipend comes in.

For example, if a full meal program at MU is $3,000 for the year, then they get a card that can be used at MU food services (Union or the Sodexo food service in their dorm). If at the end of the year you only ate $2,000 worth of food, too bad, you don't get the unused funds. And you can only use that meal card at those specified on-campus places - dorm & union.

Then you have something like Humphrey Hall. They don't have a dorm cafeteria like some of the other dorms, so in place of the food 'debit card', they get money cards for meals whichg are good anywhere - Union, annex, Subway, Real Chilli etc. If you don't use it all, it is your cash. So, if your stipend this week was $100 and you only spend $50 - you have $50 of spending money.

When Larry moved the freshmen and sophs into a dorm that has a cafeteria - those players get no stipend.

At The AL one day I personally witnessed players talking about going to get something to eat at some place on/near campus. There were 6-7 guys. They were all talking, and when they agreed, you could tell the two frosh became very silent. And then they left - 5 guys heading to get something to eat - the other two heading in the opposite direction because they didn't have cash or food debit cards. Great way to build team unity, isn't it?

[GOMU1104]

What about on the road?

[IWB]

I had it explained to me at one point, but can't remember how it works, they eat mostly team meals, and I think they factor the cost of those vs the stipend? Don't remember. Good question for Broek.

[GOMU1104]

Makes sense...I've just had a lot of former (non-MU) college athletes tell me they got meal money on the road.

[IWB]

They do, but there is a formula and I can't remember how it works.

[MayorBeluga]

Hizzoner cannot understand why anyone would object to allowing this. The NCAA is a non-profit member organization, and it's member institutions would approve this rule. We've learned over the years that the members put the interests of their student athletes first. There is no way that a member institution would ever violate a rule in an effort to gain a competitive advantage over another member institution. Nor would a member institution risk its good name by allowing a booster to subvert the obvious good intention of these rules by doing things such as overpaying for student-athletes' autographs.

Geez. You people are so cynical. The NCAA is a paragon of virtue, just like the Olympics and FIFA.

[Mucrisco]

A couple of things(I am assuming that things are still the same as when I was there):

The players get money to spend on food. That is mostly for lunch. They still get training table for dinner. They can take that food to go. So, most of the time, the players weren't even spending that money on food anyway. However, during the breaks, the union wasn't open for training table. So, I got a check to spend on food.

On the road, if you are on your own for a meal, you get money. For example, if you are supposed to get food at the airport, they give you cash to spend. When I went on road trips, we ate so many meals together that I was too full to spend my money. So, I always came home with all that money to spend in the bars. For the tournaments, those stipends come from the conference or the NCAA and it was a lot more.