Butler Thoughts

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

I wanted to wait before I posted this because I didn't want to be irrational. Anyway...my takeaways:

-- A lot of people praised Derrick for playing his best game. The problem was it wasn't his game. His turnovers kept a big lead from becoming a blowout and as much as he helped build that lead, the ball in his hands late in the shot clock helped tear it down. He's at his best under control.
-- Jamil and Mayo are absolutely the problem with this team. Inconsistency seems to be in their DNA. We needed them to step up and hit shots to end the run, they never did.
-- Davante at the top of the key is something that causes me to wake up screaming from my nightmares. Yes, Butler clogged the lanes, but it doesn't help when the guy you need to get it to isn't even in position to receive a pass. How he has not learned in 4 years that he is not a point guard is beyond me.
-- This team has no leadership. Burton has that spark but not yet that game. We need to see a huge jump from him next year, because none of DW, Todd, or Juan have shown they have it either. This is the most disappointing senior class I can remember.
-- We aren't dead yet. The number for me is still 11. If we lose the next two to fall to 2-5 in league, I could still see us winning 9 of our last 11. The schedule opens up that much. Do that and win 2 at MSG and I think we're in.
-- Butler is not good. This is the worst loss I've seen since DePaul in 2010. But Butler IS a lot tougher than we are. And that's sad. What makes yesterday worse is that they didn't so much take the win as we just let it get away. Missed shots, no energy, dumb mistakes, we had about 20 chances to end that run and put the game away. Because Butler kept giving them to us. And we continued to drop the ball.
-- One last thing...Derrick for me is probably our MVP this season. Mainly because he's the only guy that gives us solid play night in and night out. On a team with Jamil, Davante, and Todd, I am really disappointed to say that. He shouldn't ever be our best player. But he's the only one who's rarely bad. Also...when an average PG who can't shoot is your MVP, that's when you are 10-8.

[Markedman]

The schedule only opens up if you assume we are alot better then the teams we will face in that stretch...we clearly are not....their are no awful teams in the Big East this year and our offense has shown it isn't good enough to win 9 out of 11 against the teams we will be facing. 11-7 with our non conference profile is very unlikely to be enough anyway....

Are we still alive mathmatically? Of course we are....realistically we are not going to get it done this year unless we somehow find lightening in a bottle and win the BE tourny which I don't think any of us see happening.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

I've seen a lot of parallels with this team and 2009-10, and starting 2-5 in conference could end up being one of those. That team took off at that point and made the tourney. Right now I admit I don't see that happening, largely because the close-call losses that team suffered were to top-10 teams while the losses this team is suffering are less close to lower-quality opposition, but in terms of level of difficulty, it does get easier. Win at home, show up on the road, it can be done.

Likely? No. Possible? Yes.

[mufan2003]

Buzz needs to stress the same mindset he stressed in 2009-2010. Acker and Cubillan was our starting backcourt. That team's attention to detail was outstanding despite their limitations and lack of depth. Buzz preached "razor thin margin for error." They took no plays off and were sharp for as close to 40 minutes as possible.

Up 12 in the 2nd half yesterday, it is unanimous that MU relaxed and stopped playing to their strengths. MU has more depth than 2010, granted no Lazar Hayward, DJO or Butler. But that team only went 6 or 7 deep. MU just needs to get a road win, hopefully that can inspire confidence. There is no other choice. This team is not good enough to play cool, need to play like the 2010 team.

[mufan2003]

Careful how bad u want to make Butler out to be. They lost to #6 Villanova in OT. They lost to #9 Oklahoma State in the Old Spice Classic by 2 and easily could have won. They are not terrible as some want to make them out to be.

[mufan2003]

While the NCAA Tourney looks dimmer with each loss, I hope, somehow, some way, MU can find a way to get in.....because I think 8 appearances in a row is pretty cool and don't want to stop that streak.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Buzz needs to stress the same mindset he stressed in 2009-2010. Acker and Cubillan was our starting backcourt. That team's attention to detail was outstanding despite their limitations and lack of depth. Buzz preached "razor thin margin for error." They took no plays off and were sharp for as close to 40 minutes as possible.

Up 12 in the 2nd half yesterday, it is unanimous that MU relaxed and stopped playing to their strengths. MU has more depth than 2010, granted no Lazar Hayward, DJO or Butler. But that team only went 6 or 7 deep. MU just needs to get a road win, hopefully that can inspire confidence. There is no other choice. This team is not good enough to play cool, need to play like the 2010 team.

That team is exactly what I've thought of time and again this year. But the problem is this team has no leadership. Lazar knew how to lead and how to win. Butler wasn't yet a star, but he stepped up every game to take his share of the load. DJO would disappear for a half at a time, but it wasn't often that he disappeared for an entire game.

There are a lot of parallels to 2010. The GW win and the Xavier win, our only decent looking non-con wins among a ton of close call losses. The bad road loss in a game we should have won, DePaul then and Butler now. The potential of a 2-5 league start with the schedule opening up afterward. But the difference is that Jamil isn't Lazar, Davante isn't Jimmy, and Todd isn't DJO. And if they can't morph into passable representations of those players, we'll never reach the heights of that team.

As far as Butler, I simply don't think they're good. They play scrappy, but that doesn't make them good. They weren't good yesterday no matter who wants to say otherwise. They weren't good in the second half. We were just god awful. Butler gave us countless chances to put that game away. We had shot after shot and missed. We ran out of shot clock with the ball in the hands of the wrong guy. We tried to play too fast and turned it over too much. Meanwhile, they were missing a lot of shots. They only scored 23 second half points. Not exactly an offensive juggernaut, just good enough to beat a team that played awful.

[mufan2003]

Agree that this team has no Lazar Hayward (consistency producing and leadership). I also agree that Jimmy Butler and DJO were not "stars" yet, but contributors. The similarities lie in the fact that both teams' strengths were/are the front court. DJO was at the 3, Butler at the 4 and Hayward at the 5. That was not really a legit frontcourt, each of those 3 were playing out of position. Cubillan and Acker could shoot, well Jake Thomas can shoot. Derrick Wilson cannot shoot, but he should be able to finish inside the paint better than Acker/Cubillan could. You are right, 2-5 then versus 2-3 now.....tomorrow is a huge game. MU has been good at home, but the competition will be better with Villanova, Xavier and Creighton all forthcoming. I'll repeat what I said, MU needs to play with the "attention to detail" and value of each possession that the 2010 team played with. If they do, they could have a shot.

[Markedman]

That team had 4 future pros playing significant minutes ....how many are on this team?

Jamil? Maybe eventually like Buycks.....Possibly Burton or JJJ?

Of the eventual pros on that team one was a sophmore...2 Juniors and 1 was a Senior.....

Plus that team had one huge thing that this team doesn't have....they were one of the best 3 point shooting teams in the country.

ps. Butler was becoming a star....he averaged almost 15 points a game shot over 50% from the floor....made half of his small amount of 3 pointers attempted and got to the free throw line 244 times . DJO averaged over 13 points and shot 47% from 3!

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

I remember when Lazar was drafted with the 30th pick I just about crapped myself. Not many thought Buycks had any NBA potential. Butler and DJO looked like good players but not necessarily NBA caliber.

I think if you looked at the teams in relation to where they are now, they had the same level of NBA talent. Jamil and Hayward looked like fringe NBA guys. Gardner/Mayo and Butler/DJO looked like guys who might get a cup of coffee but not stars. And the rest of the team look like they won't sniff the league, like Buycks and the rest of that team.

[mufan2003]

Lazar Hayward was 2nd team All-Big East and Jimmy Butler was honorable mention. There were no other MU players on the three 2010 All-Big East teams. So 3 or 4 future NBA players is a little misleading. Jimmy Butler was good, solid as a junior.

An additional obstacle the 2010 team faced was if a player got into foul trouble or missed a game or two because of a minor injury....it became as if Buzz had no reserves to use. That team simply could not foul, which gets back to how amazing it was they went 11-7 with such a thin margin for error. This MU team goes at least 10 deep. The 2010 team was a tremendous 3-point shooting team, but basketball is more than 3-point shots. Too many teams live and die by the 3. Interior scoring, rebounding and defense should typically be attributes that are sustainable more often than not game in and game out.

[TheSultan]

This MU team goes ten deep?

We just came off a game where our bench scored 4 points...all in overtime. MU's bench is spotty at best. Mayo is inconsistent...Burton plays like a freshman.

[kneelb4zerg]

Our defense wasn't very good that season (this years is pretty good) but any legitimate comparison between the two likely begins and ends with our woeful offensive efficiency sitting at around the 150 mark. If it hasn't improved by now, when will it improve?

[Markedman]

That was the deepest the league had ever been top to bottom....11 teams made the tourny.

Watching that team play compared to this one I see no comparison.....that team was better and it isn't close..IMO

Butler was better then any player on this team and it isn't close...DJO was better then any guard we have this year and it isn't close. Acker was not nearly the defender Derrick is but offensively he was very good that year. Never turned it over(the whole team rarely did) and hit the 3 at close to 50%....Coobie hit over 40% from 3 that year as well....

That was one of my favorite teams to watch in the last 20 years......moved the ball and played fundamentally sound solid basketball....can anyone really say this team is fun to watch?

I'd take living and dying by a great 3 point shooting team then what we have this year. I swear sometimes I don't think people watch the games. Our offensse this year is horrible.....check out the pomeroy stats...check out any stats.....is this years team better defensively? Yes....but no defense is good enough to make up for an offense this bad....that team played 21 games against top 100 teams.....21! They ended up 10-11 in those games....9 of those games were against top 25 teams... they won 3 of them...they also lost at the buzzer 3 times to top 16 teams.

Our record this year is 2-8 vs the top 100...


Lazar Hayward was 2nd team All-Big East and Jimmy Butler was honorable mention. There were no other MU players on the three 2010 All-Big East teams. So 3 or 4 future NBA players is a little misleading. Jimmy Butler was good, solid as a junior.

An additional obstacle the 2010 team faced was if a player got into foul trouble or missed a game or two because of a minor injury....it became as if Buzz had no reserves to use. That team simply could not foul, which gets back to how amazing it was they went 11-7 with such a thin margin for error. This MU team goes at least 10 deep. The 2010 team was a tremendous 3-point shooting team, but basketball is more than 3-point shots. Too many teams live and die by the 3. Interior scoring, rebounding and defense should typically be attributes that are sustainable more often than not game in and game out.

[mufan2003]

I think u are losing focus on the debate. It is not whether this team is great or not, it is whether they are dead or not sitting at 2-3 in conference. 2010 was used as a comparison to a team that started off 2-5 in conference. We will have to agree to disagree on Butler's greatness as a Junior.

Multiple analysts have noted this team is not playing with the typical toughness and attention to detail of Buzz Williams coached teams. Last year's MU team could not shoot either, and we won the Big East and went to the Elite 8. It was the toughness, defense, rebounding, attention to detail which allowed us to win last year.

[mufan2003]

"Butler was better as a junior than anyone on this team and it is not close?"

Wow. Maybe Butler as a senior, not as a junior. Buzz is on record saying Jamil may be the best all-around player he has had during his tenure. I disagree, but Jamil certainly, skill-wise, is every bit as talented as Jimmy was as a junior. Jamie has at least 13 more games to show it.

I agree on the shortcomings of Derrick Wilson, every MU fan can see that. That 2010 faced such a daunting task because (1) they only went 6 -7 guys deep and (2) were extremely undersized at every position. PG-5'8" , SG-6'0" , SF-6'2" , PF-6'7" , C-6'6". That type of lineup is an uphill battle.

[Markedman]

No it wasn't...Our defense this year is actually slightly better then it was last year....We were better last year because Vander, Junior, and Lockett were much better all around players then the guys who are playing now. We didn't shoot the 3 well but we got to the line and had a better shooting percentage because Junior and Vander could get into the lane and score, get fouled or dish it to a teammate for a layup or open look.. Junior made huge plays to beat UW and UCONN......Vander made huge play after huge play to beat St Johns, Davidson and Butler..Who has made the huge plays this year?...I love toughness as much as the next guy....Jae Crowder was one tough SOB.....but he was great becasue he was skilled AND tough...not just tough.

Was last years team tougher? I'm sure it was...but you can be tough as nails and still lose if you don't have the talent to make plays.....

OK...I think we have both had our say....I'll give you the last word if you want it.....;)


I think u are losing focus on the debate. It is not whether this team is great or not, it is whether they are dead or not sitting at 2-3 in conference. 2010 was used as a comparison to a team that started off 2-5 in conference. We will have to agree to disagree on Butler's greatness as a Junior.

Multiple analysts have noted this team is not playing with the typical toughness and attention to detail of Buzz Williams coached teams. Last year's MU team could not shoot either, and we won the Big East and went to the Elite 8. It was the toughness, defense, rebounding, attention to detail which allowed us to win last year.

[Markedman]

Buzz says somebody is the most talented guy he has ever coached every year....come on.

Buzz said most talented not that he was the best......do you really think Buzz would say Jamil Wilson is better then Jae or Jimmy? Seriously? Wes? McNeal?

Buzz was pumping Jamil up because he needs him to be great......So far it is clear he hasn't been.....

Compare Jimmy's junior stats to Jamil's this season......it's not even close.....and Jimmy played a tougher schedule




"Butler was better as a junior than anyone on this team and it is not close?"

Wow. Maybe Butler as a senior, not as a junior. Buzz is on record saying Jamil may be the best all-around player he has had during his tenure. I disagree, but Jamil certainly, skill-wise, is every bit as talented as Jimmy was as a junior. Jamie has at least 13 more games to show it.

I agree on the shortcomings of Derrick Wilson, every MU fan can see that. That 2010 faced such a daunting task because (1) they only went 6 -7 guys deep and (2) were extremely undersized at every position. PG-5'8" , SG-6'0" , SF-6'2" , PF-6'7" , C-6'6". That type of lineup is an uphill battle.

[mufan2003]

Good points Markedman. Maybe MU loses all their remaining games. This team has its shortcomings. I remember feeling the same in 2010 when we started 2-5, Maymon had transferred, we had a "midget" backcourt as Buzz liked to say and no depth.

I just remember how much March Madness sucks when MU is not a part of it. Have to go back to 2005 the last time that happened. Trying to stay optimistic. I am done :)

[Markedman]

I think we can all agree on this......


Good points Markedman. Maybe MU loses all their remaining games. This team has its shortcomings. I remember feeling the same in 2010 when we started 2-5, Maymon had transferred, we had a "midget" backcourt as Buzz liked to say and no depth.

I just remember how much March Madness sucks when MU is not a part of it. Have to go back to 2005 the last time that happened. Trying to stay optimistic. I am done :)

[KalkBird]

I wanted to wait before I posted this because I didn't want to be irrational. Anyway...my takeaways:

-- A lot of people praised Derrick for playing his best game. The problem was it wasn't his game. His turnovers kept a big lead from becoming a blowout and as much as he helped build that lead, the ball in his hands late in the shot clock helped tear it down. He's at his best under control.
-- Jamil and Mayo are absolutely the problem with this team. Inconsistency seems to be in their DNA. We needed them to step up and hit shots to end the run, they never did.
-- Davante at the top of the key is something that causes me to wake up screaming from my nightmares. Yes, Butler clogged the lanes, but it doesn't help when the guy you need to get it to isn't even in position to receive a pass. How he has not learned in 4 years that he is not a point guard is beyond me.
-- This team has no leadership. Burton has that spark but not yet that game. We need to see a huge jump from him next year, because none of DW, Todd, or Juan have shown they have it either. This is the most disappointing senior class I can remember.
-- We aren't dead yet. The number for me is still 11. If we lose the next two to fall to 2-5 in league, I could still see us winning 9 of our last 11. The schedule opens up that much. Do that and win 2 at MSG and I think we're in.
-- Butler is not good. This is the worst loss I've seen since DePaul in 2010. But Butler IS a lot tougher than we are. And that's sad. What makes yesterday worse is that they didn't so much take the win as we just let it get away. Missed shots, no energy, dumb mistakes, we had about 20 chances to end that run and put the game away. Because Butler kept giving them to us. And we continued to drop the ball.
-- One last thing...Derrick for me is probably our MVP this season. Mainly because he's the only guy that gives us solid play night in and night out. On a team with Jamil, Davante, and Todd, I am really disappointed to say that. He shouldn't ever be our best player. But he's the only one who's rarely bad. Also...when an average PG who can't shoot is your MVP, that's when you are 10-8.


Derrick is your MVP? That team wont make the NCAA as you predict.