Statistical Comparison

[Phantom Warrior]

Our five starters - Derrick, Jake, Juan, Jamil, and Chris - played a total of 101 minutes today.

Combined the five scored 21 points, had 24 rebounds, 10 assists, 6 steals, 2 blocks, and 5 turnovers. Collectively, this group shot 7 of 21 from the field (33%), 1 of 7 on treys (14%), and 6 of 11 on free throws (55%).

Our guys off the bench played 99 minutes (including one minute for Flood).

Combined, the reserves scored 50 points, had 10 rebounds, 9 assists, 6 steals, 3 blocks, and 9 turnovers. Collectively, this group shot 16 of 26 from the field (62%), 3 of 5 on treys (60%), and 15 of 20 free throws (75%).

Notice, we started extremely slowly once again in the first four to five minutes. Dig a hole against Creighton - at Creighton no less - and it will likely be Tap City.

At least Buzz started Mayo and Davante in the second half. I am very curious to see how Buzz allots minutes New Year's Eve.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Our five starters - Derrick, Jake, Juan, Jamil, and Chris - played a total of 101 minutes today.

Combined the five scored 21 points, had 24 rebounds, 10 assists, 6 steals, 2 blocks, and 5 turnovers. Collectively, this group shot 7 of 21 from the field (33%), 1 of 7 on treys (14%), and 6 of 11 on free throws (55%).

Our guys off the bench played 99 minutes (including one minute for Flood).

Combined, the reserves scored 50 points, had 10 rebounds, 9 assists, 6 steals, 3 blocks, and 9 turnovers. Collectively, this group shot 16 of 26 from the field (62%), 3 of 5 on treys (60%), and 15 of 20 free throws (75%).

Notice, we started extremely slowly once again in the first four to five minutes. Dig a hole against Creighton - at Creighton no less - and it will likely be Tap City.

At least Buzz started Mayo and Davante in the second half. I am very curious to see how Buzz allots minutes New Year's Eve.

This is one thing that I disagree with Buzz about, and it's that he starts the same five in the second half as the first. I get having Otule out there for the tip, it's a no-brainer because Gardner isn't going to win a tip against any HM center. But in the second half, I think starting Gardner makes more sense. Buzz has always seemed to start the same five in both halves, but the difference between the first and second regarding the tip is significant, so it surprises me that he always seems to go with the same five.

[kneelb4zerg]

These numbers are skewed due to Jamil injury. Bench got more minutes.

[Phantom Warrior]

Nothing is skewed.

The starters played 101 minutes. That is a FACT. It is irrelevant whether Jamil played fewer minutes than he normally does.

The reserves played 99 minutes. That is a FACT.

The stats are FACTS relative to THIS GAME.

The reserves played 49.5% of the minutes. They scored 70% of the team's points in those minutes. Those are FACTS.

The reserves shot 62% from the field. The starters shot 33% from the field. Those are FACTS.

The reserves turned the ball over nine times. The starters turned the ball over only five times. Those, too, are FACTS.

The FACTS will be DIFFERENT in the next game. That does not mean they will not still be FACTS. They will be.

You can ignore them. You can interpret them. You can analyze them. But you can not dispute them. They are what they are. Period.

[kneelb4zerg]

Whatever term you want to use, if you don't see the problem with comparing starters to bench players in a game where the best starter gets knocked out in the first couple of minutes, then I don't really know what to say.

[TheSultan]

Just to throw this out....

Otule's +/- is better than Davante's

Juan's is better than Deonte's

Jake's is better than Todd's

Basketball is played on both ends.

[kneelb4zerg]

Just to throw this out....

Otule's +/- is better than Davante's

Juan's is better than Deonte's

Jake's is better than Todd's

Basketball is played on both ends.

Yeah Buzz is no dummy. Although judging by the morons complaining about everything in and around section 208, you would think otherwise.

[Goose85]

While watching a brief stint with three Frosh on the floor, it is easy to see why Buzz may not ever do that in a league game - defense was awful.

Interesting how soon into the game there was a move to bring in Mayo for De Wilson.

[TheSultan]

I think it is inevitable that the freshmen will get more minutes. And they should. but the idea that everything should be turned over to them, as some are suggesting, is just not smart right now.

[BLT]

This is not really a surprise, is it? Gardner and Mayo have been the two of the three leading scorers all season. The third being Jamil who was out. And the two freshmen have been instant O, dominating the shot % when they enter. I think a bigger point of these stats is how ugly it would be for MU if Jamil is out for an extended period (sounds day to day).

It is obvious Buzz has been starting defense. I doubt if the frosh started against Creighton that MU would not get burned in that match up.

A couple of observations from the game:

The half court trap was effective and used the talent on the floor effectively. Very good defensive game yesterday. I expect to see that against Creighton to slow them down. Bad matchup game for MU.

As stated, interesting that Mayo for DeWilson happened pronto. I get the bad rap on Mayo and what Buzz is doing, but MU is obviously a better team with him out there because of his volume scoring, dribble penetration and playmaking. He is a solid on ball defender as well (3 steals). With Jamil hurt, Todd was playing some point against the zone. I expect to see it more, and it may be Derrick who sits more as a result and not Jake. That was I was reading into it anyway.

Jake. With Derrick in, Buzz has Jake being a perimeter transfer point against the zone versus being the shooter. Often times he would forego an open three to move the ball. The result, a Gardner long two on a baseline late or a forced Juan three. Sorry, I would prefer that Jake launch it. This is why Jake is more effective with Todd and JJJ in as his role changes.

Gardner. There is no one to get him the ball in a position to score. Defenses are sagging, they double down, and the shooters are out of position often to receive a pass back. MU needs to work on their spacing, although the Gardner back to Jake has had some success more recently with adjustments. I think this will improve with settled lineups in league play.

[bleedbluegold03]

Whatever term you want to use, if you don't see the problem with comparing starters to bench players in a game where the best starter gets knocked out in the first couple of minutes, then I don't really know what to say.

do you think our five starters give us the best chance to win?

[kneelb4zerg]

do you think our five starters give us the best chance to win?

No but they don't play the whole game do they?

The combinations that buzz is trying out at different times of the game very likely do give is the best chance to win.

It's not like Buzz is riding Jake and Derrick for 40 minutes a game.

[TheSultan]

do you think our five starters give us the best chance to win?


I really don't care who starts.

[Nukem2]

I really don't care who starts.

Normally I would agree with you. Actually, though, it is important who starts for this team. The current starting lineup has led to very slow starts in many halves this year ( particularly in the losses ).

[bleedbluegold03]

We average minus 6 in the first four minutes of each half in our losses. Jake and Derrick also play the 1st and 3rd most minutes per game. Does this philosophy give us the best opportunity to win?

[WindyCityGoldenEagle]

We average minus 6 in the first four minutes of each half in our losses. Jake and Derrick also play the 1st and 3rd most minutes per game. Does this philosophy give us the best opportunity to win?

Is that for real? Wow, that's pretty staggering. I get that Buzz always talks about "earning the right to start" and this is the culture he wants to produce, but at the same time you can't ignore the numbers, especially Buzz who has to be aware of these numbers as he's a numbers freak.

[TheSultan]

We average minus 6 in the first four minutes of each half in our losses. Jake and Derrick also play the 1st and 3rd most minutes per game. Does this philosophy give us the best opportunity to win?


Sure. Why not?

[kneelb4zerg]

Is that for real? Wow, that's pretty staggering. I get that Buzz always talks about "earning the right to start" and this is the culture he wants to produce, but at the same time you can't ignore the numbers, especially Buzz who has to be aware of these numbers as he's a numbers freak.

Minutes are minutes no matter when they come, beginning middle or end. If others are good enough to take minutes from the starters then they will be taken.

Man I'm sick of this debate.

[bleedbluegold03]

Minutes are minutes no matter when they come, beginning middle or end. If others are good enough to take minutes from the starters then they will be taken.

Man I'm sick of this debate.

Buzz has already stated four of the five most talented players on the roster are starting on the bench each game and getting less playing time than Derrick and Jake (a "sub par" SG by Buzz's own words).

My point is by not starting and playing the best players for the most minutes a game, we're not in the best position to win the game. Our starting - and most minute players - in the backcourt are the worst in the Big East by far.

[TheSultan]

Buzz has already stated four of the five most talented players on the roster are starting on the bench each game and getting less playing time than Derrick and Jake (a "sub par" SG by Buzz's own words).

My point is by not starting and playing the best players for the most minutes a game, we're not in the best position to win the game. Our starting - and most minute players - in the backcourt are the worst in the Big East by far.


We get it.

You have made the point repeatedly.

Mail Buzz a letter or something because at this point I think he's the only one that you haven't shared this with a dozen times.

[kneelb4zerg]

It wouldn't be as annoying if it hadn't played out repeatedly over Buzz's tenure.

Why isn't Cadougan starting at PG over Buycks?

Why is Erik Williams starting instead of Crowder?

Why isn't Mayo starting over Vander?

Why is Lockett starting?

[AlexJesswein]

We get it.

You have made the point repeatedly.

Mail Buzz a letter or something because at this point I think he's the only one that you haven't shared this with a dozen times.

Then why post on message boards? It's meant for discussion and debate. If you don't agree then give a solid reason or response as to why (which you have yet to do) otherwise don't waste your and my breath.

[kneelb4zerg]

Then why post on message boards? It's meant for discussion and debate. If you don't agree then give a solid reason or response as to why (which you have yet to do) otherwise don't waste your and my breath.

As opposed to repeating the same thing over and over. When Buzz has clearly explained why he is doing what he is doing. It gets old. And it's not constructive.

[bleedbluegold03]

It wouldn't be as annoying if it hadn't played out repeatedly over Buzz's tenure.

Why isn't Cadougan starting at PG over Buycks?

Why is Erik Williams starting instead of Crowder?

Why isn't Mayo starting over Vander?

Why is Lockett starting?

you hide behind the starting title as I continue to state DERRICK AND JAKE ARE 1ST AND 3RD IN MINUTES PLAYED. The token starter, "Erik Williams?", in years past is fine because they only got those limited minutes. Applying this philosophy to take over your entire playing time is hindering this team. In our top 9 rotation, Thomas and Wilson are the worst two players in talent and output. Yet they are 1ST AND 3RD IN MINUTES PLAYED. It is mind boggling to me.

[bleedbluegold03]

As opposed to repeating the same thing over and over. When Buzz has clearly explained why he is doing what he is doing. It gets old. And it's not constructive.

Are we not allowed to question a coach's thought process any more?

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Except at this point it doesn't sound like questioning the thought process but rather beating the same drum. As though saying the same thing over and over again will somehow convince people. Or failing that, using all caps and bold type.

We get it. There is disagreement with Buzz's strategy. But the argument hasn't changed since the first week of November. At some point, doesn't it get tiring? Because arguing the other side certainly has.

[kneelb4zerg]

Are we not allowed to question a coach's thought process any more?

No ones stopping you but you will likely look stupid by end of year. I will refer back.

[bleedbluegold03]

Except at this point it doesn't sound like questioning the thought process but rather beating the same drum. As though saying the same thing over and over again will somehow convince people. Or failing that, using all caps and bold type.

We get it. There is disagreement with Buzz's strategy. But the argument hasn't changed since the first week of November. At some point, doesn't it get tiring? Because arguing the other side certainly has.

i bemoan the point to suggest that blind faith in everything buzz can go too far. at this point, i'd argue this board has.

[Phantom Warrior]

First of all, some things have changed over the past several weeks. Both Johnson and Burton have demonstrated that on the offensive end of the court they can be productive in a variety of ways.

They have also demonstrated that they can have an impact on defense as well - Burton with both steals and blocks and Johnson primarily in terms of steals. Johnson has also improved considerably in terms of both on-ball defense and team defense, and Burton has made strides as well, though he still has his hiccups.

Both have also shown that not only can they score, but they are also good passers.

Some things have not changed - most notably our tendency to dig a hole in the first four to five minutes against good competition. The fact that this has become a pattern rather than an isolated anomaly is, in essence, also a change. (Yes, a non-change can be a change.)

Another non-change that amounts to a change is the fact that Mayo once again found himself in the dog house, sufficiently so to be withheld from a game in which we could have used him.

I honestly do not expect Buzz's starting line up or his basic allotment of playing time to change much at all. I doubt either Burton or Johnson will average more than 10-12 mpg in conference play - some games getting 15-16 minutes, in others 7 - 10.

I think the Creighton game will give us a good indication of what we will see the next couple of months in terms of individual playing time.

Kneelsberg, as for your being sick and tired of the subject continually coming up, if MU continues to find itself down six by the first t.v. time out, don't be surprised if the topic comes up even more frequently in the future. And if Derrick and Jake continue to get 25-30 mpg, and MU continues to lose to good teams, it will come up even more often.

As Buzz said to Homer after the last game - the bottom line is whether you win or not. Win and everything is fine. No one will question Buzz's decisions. Lose, and the questions will continue. As Buzz also said, he accepts that - it comes with the territory.

[RJax55]

you hide behind the starting title as I continue to state DERRICK AND JAKE ARE 1ST AND 3RD IN MINUTES PLAYED. The token starter, "Erik Williams?", in years past is fine because they only got those limited minutes. Applying this philosophy to take over your entire playing time is hindering this team. In our top 9 rotation, Thomas and Wilson are the worst two players in talent and output. Yet they are 1ST AND 3RD IN MINUTES PLAYED. It is mind boggling to me.

It is concerning, but guys like JJJ need to step up as well. He did literally nothing in the minutes given to him against both UW and NM. That's makes Buzz's decision to play Thomas big minutes a bit easier to make.

But, I too I'm really frustrated with Buzz's starting line-up. There's no reason for DG not to start the 2nd half. Also, the current line-up is putting Juan Anderson in a bad spot as well. I like Juan and he definitely brings value to the floor. However, in the current starting line-up, he's forced to be the 2nd shotmaker/playmaker to J Wilson, and that's not the strength of his game. He needs to option 3 or 4. There's number of combinations that would allow that to happen, but the current starting line-up is not that.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

i bemoan the point to suggest that blind faith in everything buzz can go too far. at this point, i'd argue this board has.

So shouting will change people's minds? It's a wonder your head isn't bleeding from banging it so hard and repeatedly against that wall.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Also, I'd argue the faith isn't blind. Imagine you were doing the same thing for 5 years with constantly improving results. Then one day, some guy told you that you were doing it wrong and your methods don't work. Would you suddenly change the methods that you had evidence were providing positive and regularly improving results, or would you continue doing what you had regularly seen work?

[TheSultan]

Also, I'd argue the faith isn't blind. Imagine you were doing the same thing for 5 years with constantly improving results. Then one day, some guy told you that you were doing it wrong and your methods don't work. Would you suddenly change the methods that you had evidence were providing positive and regularly improving results, or would you continue doing what you had regularly seen work?


Not only "some guy," but "some anonymous guy who isn't in the same profession."

At some point bleed needs to realize that people simply don't agree, for whatever reasons, and that's that. And even if he managed to change *our* minds, the most important mind to change isn't going to listen to him anyway.

[kneelb4zerg]

Also, I'd argue the faith isn't blind. Imagine you were doing the same thing for 5 years with constantly improving results. Then one day, some guy told you that you were doing it wrong and your methods don't work. Would you suddenly change the methods that you had evidence were providing positive and regularly improving results, or would you continue doing what you had regularly seen work?

This, and Buzz has repeatedly explained his thought process for who plays and who doesn't, this year and in year's past. I happen to agree with Buzz, and I will still agree even if this season goes down the tubes. So it's not "blind faith."

[bleedbluegold03]

I'm done with the argument for now. Creighton will be telling, but I won't be shocked when Jake and Derrick are in the top 4 for minutes again. Eventually I wish Buzz would learn the idea of a sunk cost, but that may be this season's entire lesson.

[mutpm]

I'm a Burton fan, but I'm guessing part of the reason he is not getting major minutes in the bigger games is that he is averaging just 3.2 rebounds per 40 minutes. He is scoring 18.1 points per 40 minutes, but the rebounding numbers are not good. In the 6 games against better competition (the 5 losses and GW), Burton has played 70 minutes and has 29 points and 3 rebounds. How can you have a 3/4 on the floor that doesn't rebound?!?

[Phantom Warrior]

Juan had 1 rebound in 18 minutes on Saturday. Jamil has had plenty of games in which his rebounding stats were terrible. For example, he had 2 rebounds in 33 minutes against New Mexico and 3 rebounds in 28 minutes against Ball State.

Overall, Deonte is averaging 1 rebound per 5.9 minutes. Jamil is averaging 1 rebound per 5.4 minutes. Not that big of a difference.

[mutpm]

I shortchanged Burton, he has 7 rebounds in 70 minutes in the 6 games against better competition. That's still not good for an inside player.

When looking at those 6 games, the only people rebounding worse than Burton are JJJ and Jake.

Who cares what Juan did against Samford? Against 6 quality teams, he has 33 rebounds in 95 minutes. That's 13.9 per 40 minutes. In 5 of those 6 games, he had 5 or more rebounds.