PG Re-Visited

[Nukem2]

Murff makes an interesting point over at JD's board stating that MU could play w/o a true PG as he believes that PGs did not truly "exist" years ago with one guy bringing the ball up and then going into the offense with two 2Gs. Any thoughts?

[MUMac]

That is what they are doing with Jamil at the point.

[Nukem2]

That is what they are doing with Jamil at the point.Sort of. But, I think Murff was suggesting using true 2Gs. With Jamil outside, we do lose his effectiveness inside.

[mufansince72]

All I know is the other team needs a reason to guard all the players on the floor. Not happening now.

[TheSultan]

Murff makes an interesting point over at JD's board stating that MU could play w/o a true PG as he believes that PGs did not truly "exist" years ago with one guy bringing the ball up and then going into the offense with two 2Gs. Any thoughts?


Typical Murff. They didn't exist years ago so they aren't necessary now. This offense uses PGs. Can we turn a 2G into a PG? Sure...and I am sure that Buzz has contemplated that since he is using Jamil there anyway.

[BLT]

Murff makes an interesting point over at JD's board stating that MU could play w/o a true PG as he believes that PGs did not truly "exist" years ago with one guy bringing the ball up and then going into the offense with two 2Gs. Any thoughts?

Didn't Buzz do this with Buycks and DJO? So, Mayo and JJJ? Or with Jake? Duane is a combo guard essentially as well if he were healthy.

[Nukem2]

Didn't Buzz do this with Buycks and DJO? So, Mayo and JJJ? Or with Jake? Duane is a combo guard essentially as well if he were healthy.

Yep, Buycks had limited PG skills at that time, but was a scorer. Worked out well. I would not suggest benching Derrick, rather reduce his minutes so Buzz can get more offensive potential and use Derrick more like he did last year. Cannot go on having our PG not shoot from the outside and unable to drive or pass inside because the defense is playing off him and sagging on the lane. Buzz simply needs to be more creative here. Bottom line is we can't keep losing because of this circumstance. Now Derrick is a very fine young man and well-like by his teammates, but he has some significant limitations as a full-time PG.

The other obvious alternative is to bring Jake off the bench and start Todd as the current starting guards do not mesh well together due to their skill sets. I think this is the better alternative. Now some will talk about Todd's checkered past. But, he really has done well this season other than the brush-up on the missed practice.

[Phantom Warrior]

Murff is full of it. MU did have true point guards as far back as I can remember, and that's about 56 years.

Dick Nixon was a point guard. Jim Kollar was a point guard. Dean was a point guard 0 and that's going back 42-44 years. Lloyd was a point guard, as were Boylan, Worthen, Tony M., etc.

The back court of Doc and Wilson was pretty much two combo guards, as was the backcourt of Washington and Allie. Tony Smith had to play point his senior year because we had no one else. Was it Anglavar who had to play point one year?

I'm not disagreeing with the premise that we can play a line up without Derrick, even if Duane doesn't come back. I'm just refuting Murff's assertion that back in the good old days teams didn't play with a point guard. That is nonsense.

That being said, I don't want the ball in Mayo's hands whether he's alongside Jake or JJJ. And I don't want the ball in Jake's hands either. JJJ has good court vision, makes good decisions, and is a solid passer, but he's not ready to take on a fair share of the ball-handling duties.

But I am really tired of watching us play 4 on 5 on offense. And I'm tired of Davante not getting the ball in the post without being immediately doubled by Derrick's man.

[Goose85]

The calling of more touch fouls on guard play makes it more possible to play without a natural point guard now.

Think of the Higgins coached Cincy teams, Louisville and others who played such physical defense at the guard position and you really needed a strong point, which was how Buzz had been recruiting for the point (Junior / Derrick).

[ziggysfryboy]

If anything, the 5 positions were more rigidly defined back in the old days.

[Nukem2]

The calling of more touch fouls on guard play makes it more possible to play without a natural point guard now.

Think of the Higgins coached Cincy teams, Louisville and others who played such physical defense at the guard position and you really needed a strong point, which was how Buzz had been recruiting for the point (Junior / Derrick).

Good point. Conversely, it makes a physical defender, who uses his hands like Derrick, less valuable on defense. Kind of a double whammy here.

[Mucrisco]

Murf's view of a point guard is not correct. I've been trying to tell him that for years. In his view, the point guard only brings up the ball, then gets rid of it and becomes just like any other player on the court. This is simply not true. A point guard under Buzz's system is even more important that previous Marquette teams. For example, with Tom Crean, the point guard was the guy that initiated the set play. He was just responsible for getting people in the right spots and making sure they ran the correct pattern that the coach wanted. With Buzz, he runs an equal opportunity motion offense. So, his job is not just to initiate the offense and get people in the right spots. He has to get right people the ball in the right spots. Since the coach isn't the one out there, calling the plays, the point guard is Buzz on the floor. He has to know exactly what Buzz wants, and perform that way on the court. He has to know when to push the ball, and when to slow it down. It might not even be delivering the pass. If he wants to get a shot for someone, it might be passing away from him, and going to set a screen for the guy you want to have the ball, so you get him open to shoot it. A point guard's duties is not based purely on X's and O's. It is Buzz on the floor. So, in short, Murf is wrong. The reason why Jamil can do it right now, is because he knows what Buzz is trying to accomplish. The reason why Dawson isn't getting minutes, is because he doesn't. There is no question that Dawson is more skilled than Derrick. But he doesn't have the mindset that Buzz wants yet.

[TheSultan]

Murf's view of a point guard is not correct. I've been trying to tell him that for years. In his view, the point guard only brings up the ball, then gets rid of it and becomes just like any other player on the court. This is simply not true. A point guard under Buzz's system is even more important that previous Marquette teams. For example, with Tom Crean, the point guard was the guy that initiated the set play. He was just responsible for getting people in the right spots and making sure they ran the correct pattern that the coach wanted. With Buzz, he runs an equal opportunity motion offense. So, his job is not just to initiate the offense and get people in the right spots. He has to get right people the ball in the right spots. Since the coach isn't the one out there, calling the plays, the point guard is Buzz on the floor. He has to know exactly what Buzz wants, and perform that way on the court. He has to know when to push the ball, and when to slow it down. It might not even be delivering the pass. If he wants to get a shot for someone, it might be passing away from him, and going to set a screen for the guy you want to have the ball, so you get him open to shoot it. A point guard's duties is not based purely on X's and O's. It is Buzz on the floor. So, in short, Murf is wrong. The reason why Jamil can do it right now, is because he knows what Buzz is trying to accomplish. The reason why Dawson isn't getting minutes, is because he doesn't. There is no question that Dawson is more skilled than Derrick. But he doesn't have the mindset that Buzz wants yet.


Thank you. That was an excellent post.

[Nukem2]

Yes, a good post. Unfortunately, the PG needs to have the skills to blend with the mindset. That is the problem with Derrick. He has Buzz's mindset, but does not have the full court vision to fully execute that mindset. Add on the lack of an outside shot allowing teams to sag inside, thus preventing many easier entry passes. But, he is our guy. Need to do a work-around. Has not happened yet.

[kneelb4zerg]

Yes, a good post. Unfortunately, the PG needs to have the skills to blend with the mindset. That is the problem with Derrick. He has Buzz's mindset, but does not have the full court vision to fully execute that mindset. Add on the lack of an outside shot allowing teams to sag inside, thus preventing many easier entry passes. But, he is our guy. Need to do a work-around. Has not happened yet.

I'm not following what you mean here.

[WindyCityGoldenEagle]

MUCrisco - good post and I get what you're trying to say, but by your logic would suggest that actually having Buzz on the floor at PG would be better than John Dawson. Obviously I'm using an extreme to make a point, but just because someone knows the offense like a coach and can be an extension of the coach, doesn't necessarily make them the best pg option for the team.

[Mucrisco]

MUCrisco - good post and I get what you're trying to say, but by your logic would suggest that actually having Buzz on the floor at PG would be better than John Dawson. Obviously I'm using an extreme to make a point, but just because someone knows the offense like a coach and can be an extension of the coach, doesn't necessarily make them the best pg option for the team.

You won't get an argument from me. I was just commenting that you can't just throw anyone out there and expect them to think and act like a point guard. Personally, I would have started Dawson a while ago. But right or wrong, Buzz knows what he wants on the floor, and that's why Dawson isn't out there. These are a couple of comments that I posted after the OSU game. I still have those opinions:

"3)You cannot keep playing Jake and Derrick together for any length of time. I understand why you would want to start the game like that. Let them hold par. Then, come in with your second team and build a lead sine the strength of your team is your depth and your second five will be better than another team's second five. However, when you don't take advantage of your depth, and you play average players a large amount of minutes, you are in trouble.

6) Our ball movement was non existent. We weren't getting any inside outside attacks. We weren't reversing the ball. Especially in the second half, it was mostly one pass then a shot. Derrick and Jake can't create their own shot. Then, you had Mayo that was getting frustrated that he was throwing up prayers. If you are playing Jake so many minutes, you need to play him along side of someone that can create opportunities for him. Neither Derrick nor Mayo is that tip of player. I think Dawson is the guy you play with Jake, because Dawson has better timing. He can deliver a pass that gets guys in a better situation, whether that's passing ahead, penetrating and dishing etc. Play Derrick with Mayo. Derrick is a solid performer and Mayo creates his own shots. "

[Nukem2]

I'm not following what you mean here.
Good PGs can sense a play ahead of time. Derrick is far more mechanical in his passing.

[Markedman]

I agree with this.

Unfortunately I think Dawson would turn the ball over at an alarming rate if he were the full time point guard.

In short....I don't think Derrick is the answer but neither is Dawson...at least not right now IMO

Vander leaving and Duane getting hurt has left us short this year in the backcourt.....

It's unfortunate but it is what it is.......


Good PGs can sense a play ahead of time. Derrick is far more mechanical in his passing.

[Goose85]

First off great stuff MUCrisco, always bringing it.

Next, I like Jake and think he would do very well if Vander was here handling the ball and the defense had to worry about him driving. The next closest thing we have is Mayo. I think Jake would do far better in a lineup of Mayo / Jake / Jamil / Juan - Burton / Davante. I think Davante would too.

I too think Derrick and Jake together is tough, unless you are ahead and want to stress defense.

[WindyCityGoldenEagle]

First off great stuff MUCrisco, always bringing it.

Next, I like Jake and think he would do very well if Vander was here handling the ball and the defense had to worry about him driving. The next closest thing we have is Mayo. I think Jake would do far better in a lineup of Mayo / Jake / Jamil / Juan - Burton / Davante. I think Davante would too.

I too think Derrick and Jake together is tough, unless you are ahead and want to stress defense.

Interesting angle Goose as I suspect many would prefer to see Mayo replace Jake and keep Derrick out there. That being said, in your propsed lineup who do you have bringing up the ball? Jamil?

[Phantom Warrior]

Not Goose, but I would rather see Johnson on the court than Mayo. I'm still not a fan of TM.

I think JJ is one of those kids who needs to be on the court for a few minutes to get comfortable, but I really like what he brings to the game. He is a capable scorer who puts pressure on the defense to account for him. But he is also a team player. I think his court vision, awareness, and passing ability are under-rated. He is a dynamic player who will only get better and better.

I actually cringe when Mayo gets into the game. He can score at times, and he can hit an occasional trey. But he forces way too much, and the entire team flow of ball movement slows down when he's in the game.

Buzz obviously does not think JJ is a better choice than TM at this point, but I like the way the ball moves when JJ is on the court better than when TM is on the court. JJ seems to have a high basketball i.q., and he also seems to be team-oriented, not I-oriented.

We are going nowhere fast with our veterans. Time for the Young Bloods.

[Goose85]

Interesting angle Goose as I suspect many would prefer to see Mayo replace Jake and keep Derrick out there. That being said, in your propsed lineup who do you have bringing up the ball? Jamil?

Jamil depending on matchup. I just think jake would be more successful offensively if there was a point with more scoring potential along side him.