Ball State Recap - 10 Things I Think I Thought

[bleedbluegold03]

- When Juan Anderson plays within himself, he can be a real great cog for this team. Gives the most hustle of anyone and seems to be moving into that Lockett "do anything" role from LY. Game like today reminds me I was wrong to write him off completely.

- Derrick Wilson showed the same aggressiveness offensively that he showed against ASU tonight. Completely different squad if he can even meet somewhere in the middle of his highs and lows.

- Great nights for the frosh. Trey J and Burton combine for 22 points, 8 rebounds, 5 assists and 4 steals. Dang. Again, if Buzz gives them the minutes, both can be strong contributors THIS YEAR

- Open for reasoning as to why Jake Thomas is starting / getting significant minutes right now. Averaging less than 4 points his last four. I nearly think the idea of him being a threat from 3 is more threatening than his actual play.

- Speaking of playing within himself, I think with Gardner's gaudy numbers at times, it is understated how well Chris has progressed offensively. Showed some good moves including a turn around hook tonight.

- My favorite lineup of the night and one I want to see more together moving forward is Jamil Wilson, JuJuan Johnson, Juan Anderson, Deonte Burton and Davante Gardner. If given the reigns, that's my starting five as it gives you the best blend of hustle, speed and offensive skill.

- Is STJ still injured?

- Bummed we didn't see Duane Wilson Jr for the first time tonight. This side of a redshirt, this would've been the perfect time to bed him into the side.

- Intrigued with Buzz implementing the press late in the game, perhaps prepping a look for Saturday?

- Speaking of Saturday, with their loss tonight, New Mexico becomes as much of a OOC "must win" as one can have. Need at least one legit W outside of conference if we want to be taken seriously Selection Sunday.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

I agree with most of this...expanding a bit...

- Juan...wow. Thank god he didn't transfer.

- What I like about Derrick is even in the lows, he doesn't give you the turnovers that lose games. If nights like last night are the high and he isn't losing games by literally throwing them away, we can challenge for the league crown.

- Really starting to think both Taylor and Wilson will be redshirted. At this point, it may be for the best. Even if Buzz tightens up the roster, we have an 8.5 man rotation.

[TheSultan]

The upside with both Burton and JJJ are huge. There are times they still look like freshmen - and Burton's right hand looks worse than my left hand right now - but you can see what they hopefully will become.

[MUMac]

The upside with both Burton and JJJ are huge. There are times they still look like freshmen - and Burton's right hand looks worse than my left hand right now - but you can see what they hopefully will become.

Agreed. They both still look lost on defense at times. As I said last week, they appear to be thinking too much and not reacting. It will come, but improvement on that end is how they will earn key minutes.

Yesterday, as an example, Burton had a very nice offensive basket and followed that up looking like his feet were in cement as Ball State's player blew right by him for an easy basket.

Again, it will come, but their defense is way behind their offense right now.

[kneelb4zerg]

- -
- Open for reasoning as to why Jake Thomas is starting / getting significant minutes right now. Averaging less than 4 points his last four. I nearly think the idea of him being a threat from 3 is more threatening than his actual play.

- .

Thomas played 19 minutes, would have likely been less if Mayo hadn't been forced out multiple times after getting bloodied. 19 minutes, 4 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists, not sure what the issue is. Ideally, 10-15 minutes and he can be productive in that role, especially as merely a threat to shoot, as you say.

[IrwinFletcher]

I am by no means a huge fan of JT, but he does many little things that don't show up. He had a great pass to Dk Wilson that lead to a bucket. He moves the ball well and plays some solid defense. He is guarded very closely on offense so that does open up the lane quite a bit which is what we need.

I think 15 minutes or so a game is fine for him. We need JJJ and Mayo on the floor as much as possible.

One nice thing about STJ and Duane if in fact they are redshirted. They are healthy enough to practice and that means the other 8-9 guys are going up against some real good players in practice. That is how they will get better.

[WindyCityGoldenEagle]

I agree with most of this...expanding a bit...

- What I like about Derrick is even in the lows, he doesn't give you the turnovers that lose games. If nights like last night are the high and he isn't losing games by literally throwing them away, we can challenge for the league crown.

This is correct, he doesnt give you the turnovers that lose you games but the reason he doesnt turn it over is that he isn't creating for others. On this offensively challenged team, I'd rather a pg who has a few turnovers sprinkled in over the course of the game bc of his aggressiveness to try and create for others---Derrick just doesnt have this ability. Our offense on the perimeter too often looks similar to the TC three man weave---a classic result of lack of penetration and ability for our guards to break people down.

[kneelb4zerg]

This is correct, he doesnt give you the turnovers that lose you games but the reason he doesnt turn it over is that he isn't creating for others. On this offensively challenged team, I'd rather a pg who has a few turnovers sprinkled in over the course of the game bc of his aggressiveness to try and create for others---Derrick just doesnt have this ability. Our offense on the perimeter too often looks similar to the TC three man weave---a classic result of lack of penetration and ability for our guards to break people down.

I disagree, in a slower-paced game that we are trying to play and be successful with, we need to limit turnovers because every possession has more value.

[TheSultan]

This is correct, he doesnt give you the turnovers that lose you games but the reason he doesnt turn it over is that he isn't creating for others.


Can we stop with this "not creating for others" falsehood?

So far this year, Derrick has 37 assists in 271 minutes. That's one every 7.32 minutes. Last year Junior had 133 assists in 982 minutes. One every 7.38 minutes. All with having a A/TO ratio of 2.8...Junior's was 1.5.

Derrick's OR right now is 98.7. Junior's was 96.2. This despite the fact that Junior was a better shooter and scored more points. And of course Derrick is a much better defender than Junior was.

Now of course Derrick's numbers may fade as we get into BE play. But he has been more than adequate about "creating for others."

[MUBasketball]

Can we stop with this "not creating for others" falsehood?

So far this year, Derrick has 37 assists in 271 minutes. That's one every 7.32 minutes. Last year Junior had 133 assists in 982 minutes. One every 7.38 minutes. All with having a A/TO ratio of 2.8...Junior's was 1.5.

Derrick's OR right now is 98.7. Junior's was 96.2. This despite the fact that Junior was a better shooter and scored more points. And of course Derrick is a much better defender than Junior was.

Now of course Derrick's numbers may fade as we get into BE play. But he has been more than adequate about "creating for others."

Easy Sultan, don't let facts get in the way of the Derrick haters on here!

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

There is one thing Derrick doesn't do, and that's pass the eye test. When he drives, it's rarely the flashy drive with the crossover dribble, it's just an efficient drive that usually results in a score. When he makes a pass, it's not the no-look pass that grabs everyone's eyes, it's a straight pass that gets the ball to the player in position to score. And when Derrick does make a great play, he doesn't pose or posture, he just exchanges a few high-fives and goes about getting ready for the next play.

The mythology that has been created around Junior this year is incredible. I still think Derrick is the better fit for this team than Junior would be. But because he's not a highlight-reel kid in terms of play or pomp, he gets criticized. Quite simply, he's going to play. I'd much rather start accepting him for what he is than slamming him for what he isn't, because the simple truth is that what he is hasn't been nearly as bad as people are claiming.

[WindyCityGoldenEagle]

Can we stop with this "not creating for others" falsehood?

So far this year, Derrick has 37 assists in 271 minutes. That's one every 7.32 minutes. Last year Junior had 133 assists in 982 minutes. One every 7.38 minutes. All with having a A/TO ratio of 2.8...Junior's was 1.5.

Derrick's OR right now is 98.7. Junior's was 96.2. This despite the fact that Junior was a better shooter and scored more points. And of course Derrick is a much better defender than Junior was.

Now of course Derrick's numbers may fade as we get into BE play. But he has been more than adequate about "creating for others."

Selected numbers can be manipulated to make a player look better or worse, you know that as well as I do (as you allude to in your last sentence). Would you say the competition Junior played against in his 30 games last year was more or less difficult than the 11 games Derrick has played in this year? If your answer is more difficult, which I would imagine it would be, than those numbers don't hold water as they arent comparing apples to apples.

Also, is getting an assist the only true measure of "creating for others?" Does Derrick really pose a threat to the defense and make the defense move and put his teammates in a better position to score or are the majority of his assists simple passes to an open man who is forced to create his own shot? Having watched every game as the majority of you have, I would argue that latter.

You would have to explain what OR (I assume offensive rating?) stands for and how it's calculated before I am able to comment on that. :)

Brew - I do accept Derrick for what he is, I'm not trying to bash the kid. I realize he's going to be our pg this year as we dont have any other options unless the JW pg experiment ends up working. He's a decent defender who has done a much better job at reducing his ticky tack fouls. That being said, just because he's a member of our team doesnt mean we can't critique him (positively and negatively) --- isn't that part of the fun of message boards?

[TheSultan]

windy, sorry but when I read your post, I look at someone who is trying to confirm something they believe and not someone who is looking at it without bias.

Offensive rating is a pretty complex calculation that is explained here.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

It is a pretty common rating that takes into effect points produced through scoring, assists, offensive rebounds minus things like missed shots, turnovers, etc. It has its downfalls. For instance it rewards efficient players who aren't used as often, versus players who are volume scorers. But in general I think it gives a good indication of the offensive value that a player brings to a team when compared to another player.

We'll see how it goes for the rest of the year.

[WindyCityGoldenEagle]

I hear ya regarding my potential bias towards Derrick but in all honesty I'm just going with what I see. I'm certainly not trying to ignore your numbers as I believe they certainly tell a story as well but sometimes that story can be a bit skewed. It's certainly possible that we just differ in our definition of "creating for others." I don't believe Derrick does this very well (baesd on my definition stated above). Sure he protects the ball, but it's much easier to protect the ball when you aren't attacking and with our lack of scoring from the guard/wing position I believe the team would be better off with more of an attacking pg (which obviously Derrick is not, nor do I think he has the skill set to become one). Derrick would be much better suited on a team that has wings that can create their own shot and attack without having the need for a pg to "set them up." ....which possibly leads to the conclusion that since Derrick isn't going anywhere, maybe we need an adjustment at the 2, i.e. jjj, mayo (which may already be taking place)

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Derrick has been attacking a lot more since the start of the season. The first four games he didn't. He averaged 1 ppg over that stretch and the only time he tried to make any offense for himself was Ohio State, when he went an abysmal 1/7 from the field. Since then, 20/44 from the field (45.4%), averaging 7.7 ppg, and shooting 76.4% (13/17) from the line. I realize he's not a lights out scorer, but he is starting to attack and look for his shot. Those first four games, Ohio State was the only time he attempted more than 2 field goals. Since then, he has attempted at least 3 in every game (averaging 6.3 FGA).

I really think the biggest problem is still eye test. Derrick doesn't have the flash we expect of a starting point guard. We are used to guys like Cadougan, Buycks, James, and Diener, that always look like they are going 100%. Derrick doesn't look like he's going 100% even when he is. Just look at the numbers over those past 7 games:

7.7 ppg, 4.3 apg, 3.6 rpg, 45.4% FG%, 76.4 FT%, while only turning the ball over 1.4 times per game.

Anyone wearing blue and gold would have been overjoyed with those numbers, but because his numbers were so bad the first 4 games (1.0 ppg, 4 apg, 4.8 rpg, 10.0 FG%, 25.0 FT%, 1.5 tpg) and that was everyone's first impression, he still gets a lot of flack. I'm not trying to say you are attacking the kid, but if you look at what he's done recently in a larger sample size than the rather ugly metrics in the first four games when everyone formulated their opinions, he looks like a pretty solid player, especially with a 3:1 A:T ratio.