OSU part 2

[Hamostradamus]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20130911/oklahoma-state-part-2-academics/

The faithful are really going nuts. Apparently, 13 on the record former players claiming they received improper assistance is "hearsay", "no substance" and lacking in "facts." OSU's J-School must suck.

[MU88]

I read some of the article yesterday. While I am sure that OSU was cheating, there were a lot, and I mean a lot, of comments from players that claimed they didn't do anything, but heard that "so-and-so" did. Frankly, I thought yesterday's piece was kind of empty. Yeah, a few guys said the got paid for easy or no work. A couple guys got a a few bucks after a big game, but claimed others got more. Maybe today's is better, I will read it when I get a chance.

[CaribouJim]

Not a chance - how many times do you have to hear "deny, deny, deny, deny" then hear their carefully scripted so called apologies down the road? I'd be shocked if there is not more than smoke to this. More like a raging inferno.

"A couple guys got a a few bucks after a big game, but claimed others got more." You really think that is all there is? I just don't get the "above the fray" attitude of many in situations like this - "there really isn't anything here" or "everyone is doing it".

[TheSultan]

Not a chance - how many times do you have to hear "deny, deny, deny, deny" then hear their carefully scripted so called apologies down the road? I'd be shocked if there is not more than smoke to this. More like a raging inferno.

"A couple guys got a a few bucks after a big game, but claimed others got more." You really think that is all there is? I just don't get the "above the fray" attitude of many in situations like this - "there really isn't anything here" or "everyone is doing it".


How about "I simply don't care all that much." Do I want it happening at Marquette? No. But I really am not going to be all that upset if OSU decided to sell its soul for the benefit of its football team.

[CaribouJim]

Fine, but what does that have to do with my response to MU88? Actually sounds more like an example of an "above the fray" attitude.

[IWB]

Check this story out..... http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/post.aspx/22190

[Goose85]

I recall in 1993, 20 years ago, going to a Florida v. Auburn football game at Auburn with IWB and a few others, a great game by the way.

Auburn, coached by Terry Bowden, won to remain undefeated and did finish the year a perfect 11-0.

The interesting aspect of the game was not just that they were on probation for infractions under the previous coach, but the game could not be televised as part of the sanctions. It was more common back then to ban a team from bowl games and being on TV. T-shirts at the game worn by some Auburn fans proclaimed Auburn as the best team on radio.

At some point TV contracts must have become too big so the NCAA never considers the TV ban any longer.

You want to try and stop cheating, reintroduce the one year ban on games being televised. Could you imagine if a school like OK State had to forfeit the $20 million in TV revenue for a year, or if last year Big 10 games with Ohio State / Penn State could not be televised?

[Goose85]

Check this story out..... http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/post.aspx/22190

Wow, that is a very interesting take on the way the writer of the story went about getting information for the story.

This is going to be real interesting, as two players from the story are saying that what was in the article was not what was said.

Here are some more responses from Ok State former players.

http://response.okstate.edu/

[TheSultan]

At some point TV contracts must have become too big so the NCAA never considers the TV ban any longer.


That and the fact that you are also punishing the opponent and its fans.

[farmerdoc]

That and the fact that you are also punishing the opponent and its fans.

Shouldn't that peer pressure be helpful in keeping programs clean though? Michigan says to OSU, if we can't be on TV due to you being dirty, we aren't going to do you any favors at the big ten meetings etc.

[TheSultan]

Shouldn't that peer pressure be helpful in keeping programs clean though? Michigan says to OSU, if we can't be on TV due to you being dirty, we aren't going to do you any favors at the big ten meetings etc.


I guess that is one way of looking at it.

But again, the fans are the ones that get screwed. And really I don't know how effective they were. Scholarship reductions are much more harmful.

[MU88]

Fine, but what does that have to do with my response to MU88? Actually sounds more like an example of an "above the fray" attitude.

You misread my response. I think OSU cheated. What I was complaining about was the article. I thought it lacked depth and support. Lots of he said, she said, but very little actual proof. Today's article isn't much better. They found what, 11 guys in a dozen years who claim to have had grades changes or had over zealous tutors. There is a lot of "this guy was illiterate, he couldn't have passed" or "how could this guy pass, he never went to class." But, there is little actual proof or evidence. I had a friend in law school with a photographic memory that never went to class. But, he aced his exams. Again, I am not saying OSU is innocent. I just think there is very little substance and a who lot of speculation and conjecture in the article.

[Hamostradamus]

There is a lot of proof in the article, arguably as much as anyone could ever legally obtain. 13 former players say they had improper help. The only other "facts" would be a lengthy paper trail of homework, exams, and report cards that show a student did D work and got a B+, or that the handwriting on the exam doesn't match Joe Smith, or that the grammar and word choice in a paper doesn't match the student's normal vocabulary. Unless OSU wants to violate Federal privacy law, or unless a former player wants to release his entire academic file (I doubt any university keeps copies of homework and exams, but whatever), no more proof would exist. So if this isn't enough "proof" of grade fixing, then I would argue grade fixing could (almost) never be proven.

[Goose85]

There is a lot of proof in the article, arguably as much as anyone could ever legally obtain. 13 former players say they had improper help. The only other "facts" would be a lengthy paper trail of homework, exams, and report cards that show a student did D work and got a B+, or that the handwriting on the exam doesn't match Joe Smith, or that the grammar and word choice in a paper doesn't match the student's normal vocabulary. Unless OSU wants to violate Federal privacy law, or unless a former player wants to release his entire academic file (I doubt any university keeps copies of homework and exams, but whatever), no more proof would exist. So if this isn't enough "proof" of grade fixing, then I would argue grade fixing could (almost) never be proven.

I doubt any teacher is going to admit to changing grades, and from what I've seen the one guy that was supposed to have been writting papers for some of these guys says he didn't do anything of the sort.

Again - like with Duke and Lance Thomas, if the professors and the tutors aren't admitting to anything, even if they think something happened, what can the NCAA do? Your point of grade fixing, without some concrete proof, is very difficult to prove.

[Hamostradamus]

Again - like with Duke and Lance Thomas, if the professors and the tutors aren't admitting to anything, even if they think something happened, what can the NCAA do? Your point of grade fixing, without some concrete proof, is very difficult to prove.

I agree with you. Proof-wise, this is as good as it can get in terms of establishing grade fixing. There is little else that can be produced.

[MU88]

I think the UNC stuff was much more thorough. You had significantly more evidence behind the accusations. I just think this article sounds really bad when you read it, but the proof is minimal. In the past 12 years, I bet you had what 300 to 350 students play football at OSU. You have 13 saying on record that they got improper cash or they got a grade changed or they talked a prof into giving a better grade because they felt sorry for the kid because he was too hurt to go to class. Geez. Wanna bet there is some kid at almost every school that talked a soft-hearted prof into changing a grade. As a non-athlete, I could relate to the claim that a prof ask the player what grade he deserved and then the prof turned around and gave him a higher one. The exact same happened to me in econ. Plus, you are talking about things that in many cases happened over 10 years ago. I think the fish stories get bigger with time. So, a reporter needs to dig deeper and get better sources. You need to get the tutor or the prof to talk, even it means not revealing their names. I think I would have much faith in the story if the author had at least an unnamed prof or tutor confirming the allegations.

Again, I think OSU probably cheated, but I think the author did a poor job of proving it.

BTW, if you want to read a pretty decent book on cheating, read David Ridpath's book on Marshall. Its a quick read. He is a bit of a whiner. But, it is fascinating at the lengths they went to cheat.

[Markedman]

and lets not forget the good old SEC

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--documents--texts-reveal-impermissible-benefits-to-five-sec-players-202513237.html

[TheSultan]

I pretty much agree with everything Dan Wetzel says in this column.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--latest-college-scandals-again-reveal-folly-of-ncaa-rules-210822795.html

[Hamostradamus]

and lets not forget the good old SEC

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--documents--texts-reveal-impermissible-benefits-to-five-sec-players-202513237.html

Sweet Jebus, this is getting ridiculous. And Wetzel is right. Lots of handwringing, a bunch of "we don't have subpoena power," and this too shall pass. And I have a new signature line.

[Goose85]

This article makes the SI stuff look foolish. He has receipts, phone conversations, etc. SI just has former players who left on bad terms.

Well, the NCAA came down hard on USC for Bush's mom getting an apartment paid for, I guess Alabama just lost the 2012 national championship if they are consistent.

[TheSultan]

Here is an article written by a friend of mine. I think he is spot on.

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/2013/09/college-football-scandals-happen-because-we-dont-want-a-clean-sport/

"Why? Why does the NCAA go through this ridiculous charade of having rules which can’t be violated, then look for any possible reason not to put any real teeth in its enforcement? It’s simple. We might claim we want clean football, but more than that, we want Alabama football. We want to see the best taking on the best. We want to claim bragging rights over the person in the next driveway or the next cubicle.

We wanted a playoff, but we also wanted the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl. The NCAA is more than happy to give us both. We want rules, but we want them to be enforced loosely and capriciously because more than we want to feel good about college football, we want to watch it."

[Goose85]

The NCAA has no control over post season football and gets no money from bowls / the playoff, yet the NCAA spends more money on overseeing football than any other sport.

One issues for the NCAA is for the most part paying players under the table or a teacher fixing a grade is not against the law, it is against the rules schools want the NCAA to enforce, but in some cases not really enforce too much or we might break away from the NCAA.

We all know cheating went on at Duke, but because there is no subpena powers, if those involved won't talk and the NCAA doesn't have someone providing them with the hard evidence, they can't do anything.

The NCAA also doesn't seem to be consistent. People didn't talk at Duke, nothing we can do. People won't talk at Miami, we are assuming guilt.
Bush's mom got an agent to pay for her rent and Bush received some benefits - vacate national championship and give back the heisman.
Yahoo's article indicates benefits were given at Alabama, will they not be forced to give up their national championship?
Seems the left tackle's mom had her rent paid for as well.

The perception is the NCAA doesn't want to come down on certain schools because they are meal tickets. Is the perception here reality?