Conference catch-up: Big East per SI 7-31-13

[CaribouJim]

http://college-basketball.si.com/2013/07/31/conference-catch-up-big-east/?sct=uk_t11_a1

Looks like he is picking Creighton and GT and MU as challengers.

2) Why should we be interested in the success of the new Big East?
Well, besides the TV network issue discussed above (and more competition is always good for business), the new Big East is an interesting test case for whether schools can thrive with basketball-only revenue sport models in college athletics today. Xavier, Butler and Creighton have all annually sunk a heavy percentage of their athletics budgets into men’s basketball and have earned their way to the table. Whether this league succeeds now will probably have a significant impact on how many other schools attempt to mimic that model. VCU is a school that’s moving in that direction, but overall success for this league and the programs that pushed their way in would be good for college basketball overall as it continues to try to maintain a foothold in a football-intense world.

[Nukem2]

VCU and Wichita State should be heavily considered for BE expansion.

[TheSultan]

VCU and Wichita State should be heavily considered for BE expansion.

Completely agree.

[MUMac]

I am not sold on Wichita State. I think that is a risk. Outlying area, not much else in common. They had a nice run the past two years with Greg Marshall, but under Turgeon rebuilt the program, but left after his big success (Sweet 16). I just don't see them as a building block for the league.

[Nukem2]

I am not sold on Wichita State. I think that is a risk. Outlying area, not much else in common. They had a nice run the past two years with Greg Marshall, but under Turgeon rebuilt the program, but left after his big success (Sweet 16). I just don't see them as a building block for the league.
Much better alternative than SLU or Dayton.

[TedBaxter]

Why do we keep going with this conversation? Everybody knows each others opinions, so let it go.

[MUMac]

Much better alternative than SLU or Dayton.

I disagree, though I draw my conclusions from actually having lived in Wichita for a number of years. I just do not see it as a fit and do not agree it is a better alternative than SLU or Dayton (whom I am not advocating I want either).

[MUMac]

Why do we keep going with this conversation? Everybody knows each others opinions, so let it go.

Fair enough. I will be done with the debate.

[Halo]

My bet is SLU for sure and either Richmond or VCU. Dayton is not going to make the cut.

[TedBaxter]

I sounded like a dick with my earlier comment about this thread and I apologize. I just think there are some things about schools that need to met for inclusion in a new league with basketball an obvious one. Media exposure, non-revenue sport fits, basketball attendance, facilities, academics will all be on the table and whoever fits best should be the next two and I'll leave that up to Val Ackerman, the school presidents and the Big East administration to decide.

[TheSultan]

I sounded like a dick with my earlier comment about this thread and I apologize. I just think there are some things about schools that need to met for inclusion in a new league with basketball an obvious one. Media exposure, non-revenue sport fits, basketball attendance, facilities, academics will all be on the table and whoever fits best should be the next two and I'll leave that up to Val Ackerman, the school presidents and the Big East administration to decide.


Right. But this is a message board, it's relevant and people want to talk about it.

[IWB]

I still say the East contingent will not allow two Midwest teams.

[TheSultan]

I still say the East contingent will not allow two Midwest teams.

I think you are right...that is why I would bet on SLU and Richmond. Unless they go for publics then I would say SLU and VCU.

[TedBaxter]

Georgetown might push for Richmond since basketball coach Chris Mooney has a Princeton connection to JTIII. I think they are small time with an average attendance in basketball of under 6,000 a game, don't even offer women's volleyball and they don't move needle on a national level.

[TheSultan]

Georgetown might push for Richmond since basketball coach Chris Mooney has a Princeton connection to JTIII. I think they are small time with an average attendance in basketball of under 6,000 a game, don't even offer women's volleyball and they don't move needle on a national level.


I just posted this on Scoop...

The only reason that Richmond is in the discussion is because of two assumptions...

1. The NBE isn't interested in public universities. (so no VCU), and
2. The eastern members want some sort of east/midwest balance (so if SLU gets an invite, there is no room for Dayton.)

And outside of Richmond, there isn't another private university in the east that makes any sort of sense. You end up talking about schools like Duquesne, Sienna, St. Bonaventure, and their ilk.

[IWB]

Ted - In round one, Georgetown was fighting for Richmond because they were fighting off VCU. Georgetown does not want to recruit against VCU.

Sultan - on your two points.... 1) The NBE was very interested in VCU and some really wanted them in (MU), but as stated above, Georgetown was fighting them off hard. 2) Bingo - right on.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

My real question is who they think this other eastern team will be. St. Joe's and Richmond play in bandboxes and don't have near the support I would think is necessary. In addition, it seems like both would infringe on current eastern teams' territory, 'Nova and GT specifically. Why would GT be fine with Richmond and not VCU? Who else is out there that they can honestly sell? Iona? Bucknell? Drexel? Give me a break.

Unless UConn decides to drop football (seems like a ludicrous notion) I don't see who they are hoping for. Duke to decide they don't belong in a league with football? Gonzaga to relocate to upstate New York? Who other than VCU is even worth considering close to the East Coast. There simply is no one remotely viable that fits the profile of this league.

[CaribouJim]

Too bad Fordham never got their act together although they have had some moments over the years - NYC, Jesuit, great school, but program sucks and they play in one of the oldest and smallest facilities in D1. Iona has a better program, but doesn't make the cut either.

I think the lesser of all evils is Richmond. Maybe the BE invites them with certain stipulations - upgrade facilities etc. If I was GT, I'd want one eastern school too and I want them happy.

I'm still keeping the dream of UCONN and Cinci alive no matter what anyone says - where there is a will there is a way!!!

[Mucrisco]

How about LaSalle? I don't know anything about them. I just know they had a good year last year, I'm looking at the RPI from last year, and I'm throwing a name out there.

(My personal preference is Wich St., Dayton, VCU, in that order and they are all pretty equal. My criteria is fan support, administration support, great atmosphere in their arena. Those are the qualities that I believe would make a successful team in the Big East. I just don't know if SLU has the fan support or Richmond.)

[ValiantSailor]

I hear what you're saying, except UConn doesn't need to drop football, just reclassify to FCS - like 'Nova, GT, and Butler. Depending upon what the soon-to-be ex-BCS schools do in their quest to get even more money, that move might be sensible - not ludicrous at all.

VS

[TheSultan]

I hear what you're saying, except UConn doesn't need to drop football, just reclassify to FCS - like 'Nova, GT, and Butler. Depending upon what the soon-to-be ex-BCS schools do in their quest to get even more money, that move might be sensible - not ludicrous at all.


That might happen down the line, but I can't see them making the decision to drop down to FCS anytime soon.

[TheSultan]

How about LaSalle? I don't know anything about them. I just know they had a good year last year, I'm looking at the RPI from last year, and I'm throwing a name out there.

Right in Nova's backyard. Very likely why privates like George Washington, St. Joes, and Fordham, and publics like URI and George Mason aren't going to be considered.

[DCwarrior]

I think UMASS could be an option if they can get their hoops support back to what it was in the mid-90's. I think their arena seats over 8,500 but they're only averaging about 3,500 per game.

They would help bring in another large market to the NBE, they have both men's and women's Lacrosse, and they're considered a very good school academically (although they are public as well).

[TheSultan]

I think the lesser of all evils is Richmond. Maybe the BE invites them with certain stipulations - upgrade facilities etc. If I was GT, I'd want one eastern school too and I want them happy.


From Georgetown's perspective, I don't understand necessarily why there must be some sort of geographic balance. Marquette had to deal with it from the other end and it never bothered me all that much. Get the best schools you can.

[TheSultan]

I think UMASS could be an option if they can get their hoops support back to what it was in the mid-90's. I think their arena seats over 8,500 but they're only averaging about 3,500 per game.

They would help bring in another large market to the NBE, they have both men's and women's Lacrosse, and they're considered a very good school academically (although they are public as well).


UMass plays FBS football though.

[CaribouJim]

How about LaSalle? I don't know anything about them. I just know they had a good year last year, I'm looking at the RPI from last year, and I'm throwing a name out there.

(My personal preference is Wich St., Dayton, VCU, in that order and they are all pretty equal. My criteria is fan support, administration support, great atmosphere in their arena. Those are the qualities that I believe would make a successful team in the Big East. I just don't know if SLU has the fan support or Richmond.)

I did forget about LaSalle - pretty good history - I could live with that. I assume 'Nova would get turf conscious though. I am a supporter of SLU as they have built the infrastructure, literally, of a successful program and they have their version of Dick Strong that helps a lot. I know they have some drama going on there with their administration etc., but I do think there is potential for big things there - if not them, Dayton would be my choice for a Midwest addition.

[IWB]

Georgetown doesn't see Richmond of as big a threat to their recruiting base as VCU.

No clue who another quality eastern team would be. There just aren't any.

[TedBaxter]

How about LaSalle? I don't know anything about them. I just know they had a good year last year, I'm looking at the RPI from last year, and I'm throwing a name out there.

(My personal preference is Wich St., Dayton, VCU, in that order and they are all pretty equal. My criteria is fan support, administration support, great atmosphere in their arena. Those are the qualities that I believe would make a successful team in the Big East. I just don't know if SLU has the fan support or Richmond.)

Saint Louis averaged around 8,500 a game last year overall and just under 10,000 in a 10.600 seat arena for A-10 games last year, so they are solid in support.

[CaribouJim]

From Georgetown's perspective, I don't understand necessarily why there must be some sort of geographic balance. Marquette had to deal with it from the other end and it never bothered me all that much. Get the best schools you can.

Per IWB, hasn't GT already expressed an interest in Richmond? Marquette situation was different - they were invitees and not the inviters (if there is such a word).

[TheSultan]

Per IWB, hasn't GT already expressed an interest in Richmond? Marquette situation was different - they were invitees and not the inviters (if there is such a word).


I understand why it was different. But being a member of an "eastern conference" never seemed to be a problem for MU. I am not sure why being a member of a 12 team conference, 7 of whom are midwestern, should be a problem for Georgetown.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Georgetown doesn't see Richmond of as big a threat to their recruiting base as VCU.

No clue who another quality eastern team would be. There just aren't any.

I think that's a huge problem of insecurity. Why would you want a team that's not a threat? Basically saying you just want the team from Virginia to be the whipping boy that can't infringe on your territory? I would think you're better off getting programs that CAN be a threat than teams that can't be. It's better for the league long term. I understand it from a selfish perspective, but it seems mind-numbingly stupid from a league perspective. It's like DePaul. Selfishly, them sucking is good for Marquette, but for the Big East, we are all better off if DePaul is successful.

[IWB]

Agree with everything you are saying 77. The only reasons I can see is that 1) Big school with a lot of potential to become a power. 1) A coach that resembles John Calipari more than he resembles Dick Bennett.

[Halo]

This is all high stakes poker between these Presidents. And Fox wants new markets-so rule out anyone that is sitting right on top of another school. SLU is for sure I would bet and it still will come down to VCU or Richmond I believe. I do think they will wait a bit though to see if there are any surprises with like a UConn or something odd that could always happen. Which is smart to take a year to evaluate on how they have done with Fox and on the court and then see what is missing from the league. They may need a UConn or a UConn may need them and compromises could be made on either side depending on how things go this year.

The NBE is in the drivers seat right now. But they do need to produce on the court this year. If that happens, more options may be available that we are not even thinking of.

[TheSultan]

I think they might wait a year, but I don't think that will be because of UConn. I just don't think you will see schools like UConn, Memphis, etc. drop football, or downgrade it to FCS, in a year or two. If they decide to do so, I think it will be years...like at least a decade. And if they eventually take that step, there is nothing wrong with adding two strong members to bring a 12 team conference up to 14.

[IWB]

True - They would not wait for UConn specifically, but wait to see what develops in other places.

Example, Buzz often likes to keep one last schollie in his back pocket in case something happens with a big mid-season transfer. That doesn't mean he has a specific kid in mind prior, but knows that things always change and will wait to see what develops.

[Mucrisco]

Saint Louis averaged around 8,500 a game last year overall and just under 10,000 in a 10.600 seat arena for A-10 games last year, so they are solid in support.

The year before, I think they were averaging 6,000. Dayton gets fan support no matter what. Wichita St draws big crowds for their women's volleyball team. I recognize the value that SLU brings and they would be a solid addition. That order for me changes regularly, but the other three are currently ahead of SLU for me.

[MUBasketball]

The year before, I think they were averaging 6,000. Dayton gets fan support no matter what. Wichita St draws big crowds for their women's volleyball team. I recognize the value that SLU brings and they would be a solid addition. That order for me changes regularly, but the other three are currently ahead of SLU for me.

Agree, especially since SLU will almost certainly slide under Crews.

I like Wichita and VCU but c'mon, they won't be adding public schools.

[Mucrisco]

Agree, especially since SLU will almost certainly slide under Crews.

I like Wichita and VCU but c'mon, they won't be adding public schools.

I'm still hoping, since IWB said VCU was strongly being considered.

[MUBasketball]

I'm still hoping, since IWB said VCU was strongly being considered.

Im hoping so too, I just doubt it.