Big East discussion today

[MUBasketball]

A few articles were posted today concerning the Big East and the fact that there is STILL no commissioner.

2. The new Big East starts up in less than two weeks -- do you know who the next commissioner will be? Well, neither do the athletic directors, who have been left totally out of the loop. The 10 school presidents have been directing the entire operation, and made a number of runs at professional sports candidates before looking once again at college possibilities. The one person a number of administrators want is the NCAA's Dan Gavitt, who was a longtime associate commissioner in the old Big East. But Gavitt reiterated that he is staying put. The presidents should have done everything in their power to get Gavitt. He would have been perfect, since he understands each of the schools better than most. He also knows the difficulties of scheduling in pro arenas. Managing that issue, leading and organizing the league will be the most pressing issues of the job, since a television negotiation is already done with Fox.

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/85680/3-point-shot-scottie-wilbekin-update

And the latest from ajerseyguy, Mark Blaudschun. He's way over the top dramatic, as usual.

http://ajerseyguy.com/?p=7050

Everybody want to still insist everything is fine? The fact that there isn't a commissioner and staff in place yet with July 1st right around the corner isn't the end of the world as long as the President's would be having open communication with AD's and maybe even coaches too. Why doesn't everybody work together to get input and make the best decision possible? That's the most frustrating part of all of this, the lack of communication.

[Nukem2]

It is rather disturbing. Can't go on with 10 administrators running the show...the inmates are running the asylum...:(

[TedBaxter]

Everybody want to still insist everything is fine? The fact that there isn't a commissioner and staff in place yet with July 1st right around the corner isn't the end of the world as long as the President's would be having open communication with AD's and maybe even coaches too. Why doesn't everybody work together to get input and make the best decision possible? That's the most frustrating part of all of this, the lack of communication.

Because they are academics and know more than everyone else.

[TheSultan]

It is rather disturbing. Can't go on with 10 administrators running the show...the inmates are running the asylum...:(


I agree with you that this clearly can't go on like this.

But until someone can tell me what isn't getting done that needs to get done, then I am not sure why people like ajerseyguy needs to go into panic mode. Women's soccer, men's soccer and volleyball all have schedules put together. Cross country doesn't, so I think that is the only dedicated fall sport that doesn't have something yet.

[Nukem2]

While scheduling is getting done, not much else is other than BB refs being lined up. Need to get some structure. It is hard to attract a commish w/o structure and 10 administrators running around and pontificating. Not a very inspiring start here.

[Markedman]

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9407768/val-ackerman-emerges-front-runner-big-east-commissioner

[MUBasketball]

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9407768/val-ackerman-emerges-front-runner-big-east-commissioner

She seems to be highly qualified and respected. Also sounds like an innovative thinker, which I think is important. I'm not sure it would have mattered, but articles suggest that the Big East was reactive rather than proactive as all the sweeping changes were going on in college athletics. Maybe had they had more forward thinking leadership, it wouldn't have fallen apart. Ultimately, money talks so probably not, but it's an interesting debate.

If this happens, sounds like it might be a real solid hire. Hopefully, anyway.

[TedBaxter]

To me, it's important that the new commissioner has a basketball background and she has an extensive one.

[Goose85]

Seems to have some pretty good credentials. It would be nice just to get a commish on board and move forward.

[Nukem2]

Not to be a chauvinist, but it does seem an odd choice for a conference centered around elite men's basketball. Sounds like a choice made by committee. Just playing the devil's advocate here. May well be an outstanding hire.

[TedBaxter]

The only thing lacking on her resume' is college athletics administration and I'm not sure that's a requirement based on her other experiences.

[CaribouJim]

On paper she seems really, really strong. Very accomplished. Not so sure about her idea of a 64 team tourney with 32 getting first round bye - don't know how that would work, but good that she is putting out creative ideas. Sounds proactive.

Seems like they could do a lot worse.

[MUBasketball]

Not so sure about her idea of a 64 team tourney with 32 getting first round bye - don't know how that would work, but good that she is putting out creative ideas. Sounds proactive.

Seems like they could do a lot worse.

Well, that was her recommendation for the women's tournament. Getting creative with the women's tournament isn't a bad idea. Definitely an outside the box suggestion though.

And yes, they could do MUCH worse. Like that hunched over schlep who runs the MAAC.

[unclejohn]

This was a panel to address the declining popularity of the women's game, or at least the fact that it does not seem to be growing, and therefore is losing money. It threw out lots of ideas, like moving the finals to out of the country to the ones mentioned. Lots of outside-the-box ideas. Most of them will not be adopted of course, but they came up with some creative stuff. That might be the type of personality the league needs.

Another thing I took from the article. It seems the conference took some looks at some pretty interesting candidates. The WCC commissioner was mentioned in earlier reports. Apparently they at least talked to Gavitt. If they also went after MLB folks and the like, it looks like they went after some interesting candidates. Even Ackerman doesn't seem to be the kind of candidate that might immediately pop into someone's mind. Perhaps it is better to take the time to go after the right candidate rather than hurry up and hire somebody in order to fill the position.

[ziggysfryboy]

God help us all if she's a lesbian. (for the record, didn't even read the profile of the prospective candidate, merely referring to the A&S hiring of a few years ago.)

[ge1974]

God help us all if she's a lesbian. (for the record, didn't even read the profile of the prospective candidate, merely referring to the A&S hiring of a few years ago.)

Married with two children.

[MUBasketball]

1. If Val Ackerman ends up finalizing the deal to become the next Big East commissioner -- as expected -- then the new conference would have saved itself from an embarrassing situation. It was no secret the athletic directors and coaches were frustrated and upset over the lack of movement in hiring a commissioner and staff with the league starting next week. The timeline for this process has been way too slow for everyone involved. But Ackerman would solve any issues. The league needs someone who has a presence. Ackerman commands respect in sports and has already made her mark now as a person of change in her critique of the women's game. The television deal with Fox is done. Hiring a staff, re-branding, scheduling and actually building an organization from scratch from compliance to championships is still to begin. Ackerman has more experience than most in doing something like this when she started the WNBA. The Big East needed someone who knew how to organize and galvanize people. The league has plenty of positives with historical programs who are committed to the sport. They had to get this hire right. If Ackerman takes the gig then they did.

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/85735/3-point-shot-ackerman-the-right-hire

[MUMac]

1. If Val Ackerman ends up finalizing the deal to become the next Big East commissioner -- as expected -- then the new conference would have saved itself from an embarrassing situation. It was no secret the athletic directors and coaches were frustrated and upset over the lack of movement in hiring a commissioner and staff with the league starting next week. The timeline for this process has been way too slow for everyone involved. But Ackerman would solve any issues. The league needs someone who has a presence. Ackerman commands respect in sports and has already made her mark now as a person of change in her critique of the women's game. The television deal with Fox is done. Hiring a staff, re-branding, scheduling and actually building an organization from scratch from compliance to championships is still to begin. Ackerman has more experience than most in doing something like this when she started the WNBA. The Big East needed someone who knew how to organize and galvanize people. The league has plenty of positives with historical programs who are committed to the sport. They had to get this hire right. If Ackerman takes the gig then they did.

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/85735/3-point-shot-ackerman-the-right-hire

That is why I never understood the grave concerns by many. The league is starting next week and everything seems in place, but this hire. They were able to do a heck of a lot in a short period of time without the Commissioner. They were getting good guidance. I like what I know and hear of her, so waiting to get it right was never a concern of mine.

[Goose85]

I think the Pac 12 hit a home run when they made an outside of the box hire in Larry Scott who had previously led the Women's Tennis Association. I think Ackerman is along that same line of thinking. Hoepfully she can be as successful as I think Scott has been.

[IWB]

Only reason for a 64 team tourney is to eliminate the conference tourneys. That would be bad. Very bad. The conference tourneys are awesome. Anyone who recommends the 64 team tourney should be silenced.

A 16 seed has never beaten a 1 seed. Those games usually suck, as they are epic blowouts. would anyone really want to see an 18 seed playing a 1 seed? A 17 playing a 2? A 16 playing a 3?

The NCAA tournament is the greatest tournament in all of sports - leave it alone!

[GOMU1104]

John Paquette, the longtime spokesman for the Big East, resigned from the AAC this week. I wonder if he is coming back to the basketball schools...

He's also a Marquette guy, so I don't know if Georgetown would be cool with that.

[IWB]

Paquette is a good guy, does a great job. My guess is that is right, he is likely coming to the Big East

[TheSultan]

Only reason for a 64 team tourney is to eliminate the conference tourneys. That would be bad. Very bad. The conference tourneys are awesome. Anyone who recommends the 64 team tourney should be silenced.

A 16 seed has never beaten a 1 seed. Those games usually suck, as they are epic blowouts. would anyone really want to see an 18 seed playing a 1 seed? A 17 playing a 2? A 16 playing a 3?

The NCAA tournament is the greatest tournament in all of sports - leave it alone!


Don't we have a 64 team, plus some play in games, now?

Ackerman was speaking very specifically about the weaknesses in the woman's tournament. She wasn't suggesting anything for the men.

[TheSultan]

John Paquette, the longtime spokesman for the Big East, resigned from the AAC this week. I wonder if he is coming back to the basketball schools...

He's also a Marquette guy, so I don't know if Georgetown would be cool with that.


He actually was fired according to multiple reports. I think he would be a very good addition for the BE.

[IWB]

Don't we have a 64 team, plus some play in games, now?

Ackerman was speaking very specifically about the weaknesses in the woman's tournament. She wasn't suggesting anything for the men.

Sorry - was thinking of the bigger numbers - 164 or 132 or whatever the hell keeps popping up. Reading my original post - I should be hit with a tack hammer.

[CaribouJim]

He actually was fired according to multiple reports. I think he would be a very good addition for the BE.

Why was he fired?

[TheSultan]

Why was he fired?

No idea. Looks like it might be simply a conflict of some sort with Aresco. And I guess the word is that he did resign...but it was forced.

[MUMac]

No idea. Looks like it might be simply a conflict of some sort with Aresco. And I guess the word is that he did resign...but it was forced.

Looks like he was forced out ... or do you call it saved? How long does Aresco last?

[TheSultan]

Looks like he was forced out ... or do you call it saved? How long does Aresco last?


Remember that just because reporters thought you were good at your job, that it doesn't actually mean he was good at his job. I could make life much easier for reporters covering the University where I work, but that doesn't mean my boss is going to be thrilled with my job performance.

That being said, I truly have no idea how effective he was.

As for Aresco, who knows? I kind of think they are stuck with one another at this point.

[MUBasketball]

Amen Dana O'Neil. As usual, a great article.

I've said it 100 times and she is proving my point...not having a commissioner makes this league look minor league. It's a complete joke. Hire someone!

This is a great line:

"Here, they are wildly over their heads. Asking college presidents and priests to make athletic decisions would be like asking Bob Huggins to choose the next astrophysicist at West Virginia."

And of course, this one...

"Nap time is over. It's time for the Revs and Prez to stop making the Big East a joke."

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9420767/the-new-big-east-remains-state-confusion-college-basketball

[MUMac]

Remember that just because reporters thought you were good at your job, that it doesn't actually mean he was good at his job. I could make life much easier for reporters covering the University where I work, but that doesn't mean my boss is going to be thrilled with my job performance.

That being said, I truly have no idea how effective he was.

As for Aresco, who knows? I kind of think they are stuck with one another at this point.

I would guess being in the same position since 1989, he had to be fairly good at his job.

[TheSultan]

I love how she complains about the schedule not being done...and I am assuming she means basketball. But I would note that NO major conference has its schedule out. ACC? Nope. Big Ten? Nope. Big 12? Nada.

Again, until someone can tell me something that *should* be getting done that *isn't* getting done, then I will worry. But like ajerseyguy, I think Dana O'Neill has no fricking clue what is getting done and what isn't...and only uses the lack of a commissioner as evidence of something that may actually not be a problem.

[IWB]

How about the men's & women's soccer and volleyball schedules? Their games all start in August.

I am not concerned about that as I am sure they have it all scheduled. I also think their is a reason they are waiting, maybe to talk to someone like Stu Jackson who I would be completely against. Either way, I think Dana O'Neill is right on - the majority of the presidents have no background in athletics, would feel better if the ADs were making this decision.

[Goose85]

Slow sports cycle right now.
Basketball - done
Hocky - done
Football - nothing
Baseball - only sport going, but a long way to go
College - world series almost done

Not much to worry about so why not fixate on the Big East not having a commish.

[MUMac]

How about the men's & women's soccer and volleyball schedules? Their games all start in August.

I am not concerned about that as I am sure they have it all scheduled. I also think their is a reason they are waiting, maybe to talk to someone like Stu Jackson who I would be completely against. Either way, I think Dana O'Neill is right on - the majority of the presidents have no background in athletics, would feel better if the ADs were making this decision.

http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/w-soccer/sched/marq-w-soccer-sched.html

http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/m-soccer/sched/marq-m-soccer-sched.html

http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/w-volley/sched/marq-w-volley-sched.html

[CaribouJim]

Amen Dana O'Neil. As usual, a great article.

I've said it 100 times and she is proving my point...not having a commissioner makes this league look minor league. It's a complete joke. Hire someone!

This is a great line:

"Here, they are wildly over their heads. Asking college presidents and priests to make athletic decisions would be like asking Bob Huggins to choose the next astrophysicist at West Virginia."

And of course, this one...

"Nap time is over. It's time for the Revs and Prez to stop making the Big East a joke."

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9420767/the-new-big-east-remains-state-confusion-college-basketball

Depends on the hire - if he/she is a stud/studette all will be forgotten and more than worth the wait.

[TheSultan]

http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/w-soccer/sched/marq-w-soccer-sched.html

http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/m-soccer/sched/marq-m-soccer-sched.html

http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/w-volley/sched/marq-w-volley-sched.html


The only fall schedule that doesn't appear to be out is the cross country one. Is that unusual Mac? I know it is different than other team sports in that they usually pick and choose meets to attend so each school does their own thing.

[IWB]

Mac posting the schedules is proof, things are getting done, but they still need to wrap this up.

[TheSultan]

How about the men's & women's soccer and volleyball schedules? Their games all start in August.

I am not concerned about that as I am sure they have it all scheduled. I also think their is a reason they are waiting, maybe to talk to someone like Stu Jackson who I would be completely against. Either way, I think Dana O'Neill is right on - the majority of the presidents have no background in athletics, would feel better if the ADs were making this decision.


The presidents usually hire conference commissioners....not the AD.

[kneelb4zerg]

Amen Dana O'Neil. As usual, a great article.

I've said it 100 times and she is proving my point...not having a commissioner makes this league look minor league. It's a complete joke. Hire someone!

This is a great line:

"Here, they are wildly over their heads. Asking college presidents and priests to make athletic decisions would be like asking Bob Huggins to choose the next astrophysicist at West Virginia."

And of course, this one...

"Nap time is over. It's time for the Revs and Prez to stop making the Big East a joke."

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9420767/the-new-big-east-remains-state-confusion-college-basketball

Yeah, hurry up and hire somebody so ESPN can find something else to rip the Big East about, and so cliff-jumpers like you can move on to the next thing to be paranoid about. This is the dumbest controversy ever.

[MUMac]

The only fall schedule that doesn't appear to be out is the cross country one. Is that unusual Mac? I know it is different than other team sports in that they usually pick and choose meets to attend so each school does their own thing.

Very few CC schedules are out. Each school schedules their own and the only one that involves the conference is the Conference Meet at the end of the year. Otherwise they are all invitationals.

[CaribouJim]

Very few CC schedules are out. Each school schedules their own and the only one that involves the conference is the Conference Meet at the end of the year. Otherwise they are all invitationals.

No more dual meets or the triangle meets where you have 3 teams that result in two dual meets in one? That is what we had in high school - dual meets on Tuesday and invitationals on Saturday - road trips in an unheated bus leaving school at 5:00 AM for a 3 hour ride or something - very glamorous.

[MUBasketball]

Yeah, hurry up and hire somebody so ESPN can find something else to rip the Big East about, and so cliff-jumpers like you can move on to the next thing to be paranoid about. This is the dumbest controversy ever.

Whatever. I'm posting links to articles of the Big East getting blasted for dragging their feet, and I agree with them. This isn't my own singular opinion...look around, its the consensus. So all these national hoops writers with connections saying the AD's and coaches are upset is nothing to worry about?

Who cares about the schedules? You think that's all conf offices do? If so, then your right, who cares there isnt a commish. But they do much more than that. This conference needs a face, and a staff behind the scenes doing the dirty work, getting the word out and marketing the hell out of this thing, working with the schools to make sure everything runs smoothly, etc. Right now there is no direction and frustration is mounting. Your right though, no big deal. Give me a break!

[MUMac]

No more dual meets or the triangle meets where you have 3 teams that result in two dual meets in one? That is what we had in high school - dual meets on Tuesday and invitationals on Saturday - road trips in an unheated bus leaving school at 5:00 AM for a 3 hour ride or something - very glamorous.

Nope. Early in the season there are some smaller meets with 3 or so teams. Those are typically the first meets of the season. After that, all bigger meets. MU will travel mainly in the Midwest. Usually 20+ teams. The Adidas Meet in Madison (which MU did not schedule last year) had 41 teams. Pretty awesome to see the start of that one!

[MUMac]

Whatever. I'm posting links to articles of the Big East getting blasted for dragging their feet, and I agree with them. This isn't my own singular opinion...look around, its the consensus. So all these national hoops writers with connections saying the AD's and coaches are upset is nothing to worry about?

Who cares about the schedules? You think that's all conf offices do? If so, then your right, who cares there isnt a commish. But they do much more than that. This conference needs a face, and a staff behind the scenes doing the dirty work, getting the word out and marketing the hell out of this thing, working with the schools to make sure everything runs smoothly, etc. Right now there is no direction and frustration is mounting. Your right though, no big deal. Give me a break!

Consensus? It may be, but you really made that one up. It is the consensus of those who have written articles and you, but I am not so certain your viewpoint is the consensus of this board.

We get your position. I am sure you will be able to link another ESPN article. I am sure that any negative article ESPN could write about the BE will be written.

[MUBasketball]

Consensus? It may be, but you really made that one up. It is the consensus of those who have written articles and you, but I am not so certain your viewpoint is the consensus of this board.

We get your position. I am sure you will be able to link another ESPN article. I am sure that any negative article ESPN could write about the BE will be written.

So you don't think its worrisome whatsoever to launch a league without any staff at all? Has that ever happened before? And that's not my main point, the point is the AD and coaches are upset. How is that healthy? I'm amazed some of you think its no big deal.

[CaribouJim]

Nope. Early in the season there are some smaller meets with 3 or so teams. Those are typically the first meets of the season. After that, all bigger meets. MU will travel mainly in the Midwest. Usually 20+ teams. The Adidas Meet in Madison (which MU did not schedule last year) had 41 teams. Pretty awesome to see the start of that one!

My nephew just graduated from 8th grade and was running many of the same courses I did almost 40 years ago. One of the invitations that is still around that he ran in this year has a vicious bottleneck about 600 yards from the start with a sharp left turn - combine that with the stereotypical rain and mud it made for a mass panic attack to get out in front.

[MUMac]

So you don't think its worrisome whatsoever to launch a league without any staff at all? Has that ever happened before? And that's not my main point, the point is the AD and coaches are upset. How is that healthy? I'm amazed some of you think its no big deal.

Where did I say it is not big deal? Do not put words that I never said. I am not as apoplectic as you are. I guess that means to you I think it is not worrisome or no big deal. To me, that places me anywhere from being on the ledge to safely secured in the basement. Yours, in my opinion, is over the top histrionics. Things are being done and they will have a Commissioner. The league will not be destroyed by this situation.

As for other leagues, has one ever been started this quickly? I am not aware of one, to draw a comparison, but perhaps you are.

[Goose85]

I do find it worrysome that this group of University Leaders haven't finalized the commish yet. It is one hire, it is not like they are interviewing for the administrative assistants, the accountants, and the person in charge of the lacrosse tournament. It is hiring one person, the head honcho.

Sure they are working on things through their respective athletic departments to make sure the various sports are getting organized with schedules and tournaments. We understand that is happening.

I think most are concerned the collective University Leaders are taking such a long time to hire the commish.

But what does that mean?

Does that mean they don't think having a commish in place is that big of a deal?
Does that mean they are working hard on it but can't find a worthy candidate interested in the job?
Does that mean they really want to make sure they get the right person so they are taking extra steps in the process?
Or my concern - Does that mean these University Leaders can't work together to make a decision / are fighting each other on the choice?

[TrevorCandelino]

Slow sports cycle right now.
Basketball - done
Hocky - done
Football - nothing
Baseball - only sport going, but a long way to go
College - world series almost done

Not much to worry about so why not fixate on the Big East not having a commish.

This......+1

Short term priorities (2013-2014) for the league are to win games in March, fill Madison Square Garden and further cement a seat at the high major college basketball table.....

Intermediate term priorities (2013-2016) are to keep the stable of high quality young coaches in the conference - i.e. Buzz, JTII, Wright, Stevens, Purnell (j/k) - and see the "swing teams" elevate their games - the St. John's, Providence, Seton Halls of the conference.....

Short, intermediate, and long term priorities (2013 and beyond) are for Fox Sports One to be a wild success and consistently promote the hell out of the conference and what should be a very high quality product.......

Conference commissioner is important over the long term.....But it is much more important to get the hire done right than to get the hire done quick........Even if that means absorbing a few mid-summer potshots from a few bored journalists....

Oh, and another league priority, keep Dayton as far away from this league as possible. Thank you.

[MUBasketball]

Where did I say it is not big deal? Do not put words that I never said. I am not as apoplectic as you are. I guess that means to you I think it is not worrisome or no big deal. To me, that places me anywhere from being on the ledge to safely secured in the basement. Yours, in my opinion, is over the top histrionics. Things are being done and they will have a Commissioner. The league will not be destroyed by this situation.

As for other leagues, has one ever been started this quickly? I am not aware of one, to draw a comparison, but perhaps you are.

I was asking if I was understanding you correctly that's its no big deal, wasn't putting words in tour mouth. Good Lord man, who pissed in your Cheerios this morning?

To recap once again, I posted a link where the author called the lack of no commish a joke, and I agreed. Its turned comical to me actually. I don't lose sleep over it, and am not nearly as upset about it as you think I am. Some on here think it makes no difference and don't seem willing to acknowledge that the people who work in the 10 athletic departments are getting pissed. That's what frustrates me more. This is clearly not a harmonious situation, which is frustrating. Sounds corny, but this league should be one happy family and a few days from the launch, there is frustration and friction. Not a good start.

[MUMac]

I was asking if I was understanding you correctly that's its no big deal, wasn't putting words in tour mouth. Good Lord man, who pissed in your Cheerios this morning?

To recap once again, I posted a link where the author called the lack of no commish a joke, and I agreed. Its turned comical to me actually. I don't lose sleep over it, and am not nearly as upset about it as you think I am. Some on here think it makes no difference and don't seem willing to acknowledge that the people who work in the 10 athletic departments are getting pissed. That's what frustrates me more. This is clearly not a harmonious situation, which is frustrating. Sounds corny, but this league should be one happy family and a few days from the launch, there is frustration and friction. Not a good start.

Sure reads like a statement and not a question. But, whatever. I am sure later today or tomorrow you will find another ESPN article to link to show how awful the situation is right now. As I have said in the past, it is not as dire as you make it out to be. I agree with Trevor and Goose's posts on the prior page.

[TheSultan]

Sure reads like a statement and not a question. But, whatever. I am sure later today or tomorrow you will find another ESPN article to link to show how awful the situation is right now. As I have said in the past, it is not as dire as you make it out to be. I agree with Trevor and Goose's posts on the prior page.

Ditto. Well stated.

[Markedman]

http://www.indystar.com/viewart/20130625/SPORTS0605/306250072/Report-Former-WNBA-boss-Val-Ackerman-agree-become-Big-East-commissioner

[MUBasketball]

I am sure later today or tomorrow you will find another ESPN article to link to show how awful the situation is right now.

Right, how silly of me to post a link proving that people at these schools are upset with the process. Whether you choose to ignore reality or not is up to you.

Haven't seen anything official yet, but sounds like Ackerman is indeed the choice and has accepted. I think it's a good hire. Hope it is. Regardless, that doesn't mean the process wasn't handled poorly by the President's.

I hope this is official so we can all move on!