Mayo and/or Crowder?

[IWB]

It is now national news that Brandon Jennings wants out of Milwaukee. The latest team to step up with interest is the Dallas Mavericks. Would OJ Mayo be coming to Milwaukee? What would that do with Todd, would it be a distraction for him with his brother around or would that help keep him in check? I think it would be a distraction.

Also, which other players would be involved in that trade? Because Mark Cuban loves the fact that he made the call on Jae Crowder on draft day I doubt that Crowder would be involved, but not out of the realm of possibility.

[Goose85]

Not sure they would consider parting with Mayo as he is their leading scorer, and they want to make a run at the playoffs while they still have Dirk.

Try to get a #1 pick out of them and a serviceable player.

Need to get something for Jennings before he walks, which he will do. I really don't think he is worth the money he thinks he is worth.
I think Todd Mayo has enough distractions without having his NBA brother in town.

[IWB]

Only suggested Mayo as that is what was rumored on one of the sites.

[Markedman]

Jennings can't walk...he is a restricted free agent.
Bucks can match any offer he gets and keep or sign and trade him.

Dallas doesn't have a #1 this year and Mayo has an opt out after this year which he will certainly do since the salary number for 2014 is only 4 million.

Not sure I see a match....Collison would have to be part of the trade but that's not enough by itself

[IrwinFletcher]

I have wondered how much impact Jae Crowder has had on Todd Mayo sticking around. I am sure that at some times over the past year, Todd M has been very upset and frustrated. I am sure at those times, he has talked with his brother OJ. I am curious if OJ has spoken with Jae about his time at MU and with Buzz, and I assume those responses have been nothing but glowing. And in turn, has OJ talked with Todd again, telling him to hang in there and there is a means to the end for him.

[WarriorsNuffSaid]

Not sure but everything I've read or heard seems like Todd confides in his mother. I haven't seen Todd talk much about his half brother, O.J. Does anyone know how close they are?

[IWB]

They are close - they even went on a safari in Africa together over the summer.

[mufan2003]

Wow....so much wrong with this thread. Kudos to markedman, BJ is restricted, if I am John Hammond, let the market tell me the price, and right now, it should not be excessive. Monta Ellis has an $11 million player option. Two ways to look at this, Monta opts out....ok, we can use that money on a free agent....but can we get what we want to come to Milwaukee? Therefore risking the Bogut trade to be Ekpe Udoh for Andrew Bogut. Or, if we KNOW Monte will opt out, trade him by next Thursday (Trade Deadline).

Personally, Brandon Jennings is 23 and Monta Ellis is 27. Neither are high % jump shooters. Monta Ellis is taller and built like Dwyane Wade. Move him to PG, ala Chauncey Billups, and trade Brandon Jennings. Monta Ellis can get in the lane at will, he is best with the ball in his hands creating for others, not spotting up. Get back with a BJ trade a low post scorer or a SG with size!!!

[mufan2003]

Correction....Monta Ellis is a stud, but he is not quite D Wade :)

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

Trade them both away for draft picks and start all over. This team and organization are a complete mess, I don't trust senator Kohl with running this team and I think they would be much better served to stock pile draft picks (although maybe not for this years draft because rumor has it it's weak) and rebuild from the ground up. The issue with the Bucks is that even if they have lots of free agent money they aren't going to get a good free agent to come here because they blow and none of these stars want to live in MKE. They need to do like the Brewers and build through the draft and then if you can't resign those guys trade them at the deadline for something.

[TheSultan]

Unfortunately, like the Brewers, they aren't going to get any better until they get new ownership.

[Gato78]

The Senator is in a no win situation. He wants to sell the team, and has for many years. He cannot find a buyer who will keep the team in Milwaukee. I give the man credit for giving us crappy NBA hoops rather than no NBA hoops.

[TheSultan]

The Senator is in a no win situation. He wants to sell the team, and has for many years. He cannot find a buyer who will keep the team in Milwaukee. I give the man credit for giving us crappy NBA hoops rather than no NBA hoops.

Oh I agree with you. But crappy basketball is all Milwaukee is going to get with him owning it.

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

Sell them and let Milwaukee be Marquette's town basketball wise... They can own the city like Louisville does.

[Goose85]

The Senator, like many NBA owners, are basically screwed in this day and age of the NBA and have been for awhile.
I don't balme him for what the NBA has created, a star system with big city appeal.

Can't attract top level free agents because you are Milwaukee. Lebron, Kobe, Howard, Paul, Anthony, etc. These guys would not consider Milwaukee. Lebron was in Cleveland and they couldn't get anyone to join him there so he went to Miami.

Even when you are bad, it has to coincide with a good draft year.
#1 pick Lebron. Next year Dwight Howard. Then the Bucks turn and Bogut is the best choice.
You have to get lucky when you do have a high pick that there is a Kevin Durrant, Rose, Griffen, Duncan. Bucks haven't been. The Senator can't control that.

Even teams that tank a season to get a high pick don't necessarily turn things around. Is Nerlens Noel going to turn around a franchise? Is Anthony Davis turning around the Hornets?

Maybe the Senator has meddled in the past, but he has also written the checks to keep a money losing team here. Not sure the senator could turn Bogut into Tim Duncan.

So what should the owner do now? Give max money to Jennings? Try for playoffs this year or make trades to gut the team and hope to get lucky in the draft?

[TheSultan]

I understand it is a star driven, big city league. But San Antonio and OKC are exceptions to that rule.

In some respects this reminds me of the Selig excuse making with the Brewers. It certainly *can* be done. It's hard and the Bucks may never get to a championship level...but it certainly can be done.

[MU88]

The Senator, like many NBA owners, are basically screwed in this day and age of the NBA and have been for awhile.
I don't balme him for what the NBA has created, a star system with big city appeal.



The Bucks sucking has nothing to do with the size of the market. OKC and SA are doing just fine. OKC has the night life of Des Moines and SA is a hole, but for the riverwalk. Utah has been relatively good for the past 25 years. Why not the Bucks? Well, Kohl is a good place to start. Look at the banners in the BC. From 1970 to 1987, there is a banner for almost every year. When the Bucks played in the McDonald's tourney back in the late 80s, they had the highest winning percentage in NBA history. They were the model franchise. Since Kohl, not so much.

Now, watching the Bucks, they have Brewers syndrome. They try to be average to sell tickets, but that puts them in a no win situation. They overpay for average free agents (never, ever overpay for second tier free agents). They are stuck trying to find gems in the middle of the draft, when most middle first round picks are nothing but role players. Finally, they don't know how to build a team. Too many players who are tweeners. They have a roster with no true small forward, one true center (that is a backup type anyway) and an undersized shooting guard.

The Bucks need to clean house, and I mean clean house completely. I would even fire Ted Davis, the worst radio voice in professional sports. My God, there are guys doing high school games that do a better job of describing the action on the court. I think Henson has potential. Maybe keep Harris. You can say goodbye to the rest of them. Bite the bullet, truly suck for 4 years and do what OKC did. Draft talent with a plan. Yes, you do need to get lucky. But, you can make your own luck to a certain degree. For example, don't draft players without a true position in the first round (can we say Tractor Trayor, Gary Trent, etc.) Don't sign stiffs like Gooden, who have no court sense. Eventually, if you are winning, your players will want to stay. You see guys signing for the mid-level exception just to play on a good team. In the NBA, the cap is high enough to keep 3 stars happy. You can afford them if you don't have stupid contracts like Gooden, EI, etc. BTW, EI is the spitting image of Dave Meyers, but for the fact that Dave Meyers was tough as all heck and EI plays like a girl.

The Bucks can be successful, but they need a complete makeover.

[Goose85]

SA picked Duncan #1 in a year where David Robinson was injured and out for the entire season. That really put the team on the map. Duncan was fine to stay there so it has worked. Not many big time stars are like Duncan.

OKC also hit paydirt with Durrant / Westbrook. Those two are just the luck of the draft draw (like the Bucks winning a coin flip for Jabbar).

Hard to compare baseball to basketball as in baseball you can have the top couple guys in the sport and that doesn't mean you are world series bound. In basketball, two of the top players together on a team can make a championship team, and they often decide to play together. In baseball a 17th round pick can develop into a MLB player. In basketball the 17th overall pick is often nothing better than a bench warmer.

I agree the Bucks need changes, but everyone just keeps blaming Kohl, and I think in the NBA it isn't that easy.

As indicated by MU88, most first round picks are just role players, and a new owner can't change that. Tank the season and draft Nerlens Noel or Cody Zeller (if the ping pong balls fall right), I'm not sure that is the answer either. Need to tank in the right season to get a Duncan or Lebron.

[KMWTRUCKS]

Cleveland was able to add player's all the time. The problem is without cap space or young talent you cannot sign or trade for player's. Look at all the player's Clev brought in. The problem was with all the salary and older player's They were not going to be better. The Biggest Diff from old CBA was Big Market teams could spend 20 mil more and still be profitable. The new CBA is very hard on high spending teams in regard to both Luxury Tax and your ability to sign player's with Mid level and Low level exception so you can basically only add player's for the league MIN.

You are really going to have to build your team through the draft, But with most Big market teams going to be over the cap for years they are really not going to be able to go anywhere. Player's can only force a trade if they have another option.

That said the 2013 draft is weak. player's you could get in the low 20's last year would be Lottery this year. I think Noelens goes out this year. He would still be a top 10 pick and he can rehab at a NBA facility. 10 months that does not put him back playing until DEC. and probably only at 90% would he be drafted any higher after putting up avg Number's for 1/2 season in a strong draft? Might still only go in the TOP 10.

[MU88]

SA picked Duncan #1 in a year where David Robinson was injured and out for the entire season. That really put the team on the map. Duncan was fine to stay there so it has worked. Not many big time stars are like Duncan.

OKC also hit paydirt with Durrant / Westbrook. Those two are just the luck of the draft draw (like the Bucks winning a coin flip for Jabbar).

Hard to compare baseball to basketball as in baseball you can have the top couple guys in the sport and that doesn't mean you are world series bound. In basketball, two of the top players together on a team can make a championship team, and they often decide to play together. In baseball a 17th round pick can develop into a MLB player. In basketball the 17th overall pick is often nothing better than a bench warmer.

I agree the Bucks need changes, but everyone just keeps blaming Kohl, and I think in the NBA it isn't that easy.

As indicated by MU88, most first round picks are just role players, and a new owner can't change that. Tank the season and draft Nerlens Noel or Cody Zeller (if the ping pong balls fall right), I'm not sure that is the answer either. Need to tank in the right season to get a Duncan or Lebron.

You need to tank multiple seasons, not just one. When the Bucks got to a point of being decent, you had Robinson, Baker and Allen, three top 10 pics (maybe top 8, I can't remember where Baker went in the draft). In short, you need to suck for a long period of time, not just a year. Jennings should have been the first of 3 or 4 high draft picks. Instead, they keep trying to surround him with average talent so the team is competitive. Forget that nonsense. They needed to be really bad for the past three years. The might have been decent this year. Yes, SA got lucky. But, they got good from two really, really bad seasons and some smart drafts. Its the only way a team like Milwaukee can turn things around. When you win, people want to play for you. Remember, no one wanted to be a Packer for 20 years. Worst franchise in sports. Now, players want to play in GB. Why? Because they win.

[MUBasketball]

Sell them and let Milwaukee be Marquette's town basketball wise... They can own the city like Louisville does.

That would be nice, but it wouldn't make a difference. Marquette fans are coming to games regardless. Casual fans will come if there is an intriguing team coming to town. There might be some college & NBA fans that go to Bucks games, but I'd bet a majority that go prefer the NBA. If there are no Bucks, they probably just stop attending basketball games.

Besides, the other difference is there is nothing else going on in Kentucky - so Louisville & Kentucky are hot tickets. In Milwaukee, by the time people finally give up on their death grips on the Packers/NFL, they then cling to the Brewers and spring training. There is more talk on local sports radio this time of year on pitchers & catchers reporting than on college hoops. Infuriates me, but that's the reality.

[Gato78]

The Senator seemed to be doing things right until George Karl convinced him he needed to get rid of a perfectly happy Ray Allen so he could acquire a washed up-disinterested-at the very end of his career, Gary Payton. I really think that decision is still affecting this franchise from both a basketball perspective and, more importantly, a fan perspective. Milwaukee fans loved Ray Allen and that team.

[TheSultan]

But that Bucks team wasn't going anywhere. They were about .500 when they made that trade...coming off a year where they finished at .500. Remember that they also got Desmond Mason in that trade - who was a decent player. And Michael Redd was improving. I see what they were trying to do there...

[Markedman]

Agree with Gato...that trade was the start of the decline. Ray was still in his prime....he liked Milwaukee...if they felt like they had to make room for Redd then they should have traded him for a 4 or 5 man or a high lottery pick.

Doing nothing would have been much better then trading Ray for a half a season of a washed up Payton and Desmond Mason who was basically a role player who couldn't shoot.

[IWB]

The one thing I have issue with is the overall thought that it is all Herb Kohl's fault. Yes, he is the owner, so it all falls on him. But, when everyone says he meddles, I do not believe that to be the case. As pointed out above, it was George Karl that pushed for the Allen-Payton trade. Kohl let him do that. Kohl let Larry Harris sign some of the worst contracts in franchise history. John Hammond came in and couldn't even make a move for the first two years because of the contracts Larry Harris signed. If he was really meddling, would Harris have been able to do that? I had lunch a couple of years back with John Hammond, and I asked that question. He responded, "Well, I do have to go to him with every move I want to make and every contract I want to sign and get his approval. And with that, he has never denied one of my requests, so I would say no."

So when people say he meddles too much, what do they mean specifically?

The guy is willing to spend the cash, as proven by the fact that he strokes a check at the end of every season to ensure that the franchise breaks even. If he was not willing to spend the cash, he would just make some cuts and not extend any contracts.

I think the comments above about the Milwaukee market are spot on. Yes, San Antonio and OKC do well. Well, is it 10 degrees and windy all season in those two cities? There are some players that want to play here, there are more that don't. There is one player on the team right now that is making more than he is worth and says he can't wait to get out of Milwaukee - and its not Jennings.

To me the biggest problem with the NBA is that years ago they let the contracts go through the roof and with that the ticket prices did too. Well, that drove out the majority of the hard core, blue collar fans. Yes, you can get deals on tickets all the time, but how much? If it costs a family of four $150 to sit in the nosebleeds, do you think they are coming?

Milwaukee needs the Bucks. Marquette needs the Bucks. There are so many amenities that MU gets because they play in an NBA facility that you can't begin to count them. How many recruits say that they like Marquette adding that they play in an NBA facility? Answer - A LOT!!

Kohl should have sold the team years ago, but he loves Milwaukee and wants the guarantee that they will stay - no takers.

Hate him if you want, but without Herb Kohl, Milwaukee is not an NBA city.

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

I would fully support a suck for rebuilding program. Lets face it right now they draw few fans so they aren't likely to get a whole heck of a lot worse. I think they should dump Jennings, dump Ellis, and maybe go after a few local guys or guys with ties to the city like Crowder, Novak, Or Matthews and bring them home to draw some fans. Those guys are all hardworking team players with the right attitude, that's what you need in MKE. You use those guys while accumulating draft picks and see what you can build.

[TheSultan]

I would fully support a suck for rebuilding program. Lets face it right now they draw few fans so they aren't likely to get a whole heck of a lot worse. I think they should dump Jennings, dump Ellis, and maybe go after a few local guys or guys with ties to the city like Crowder, Novak, Or Matthews and bring them home to draw some fans. Those guys are all hardworking team players with the right attitude, that's what you need in MKE. You use those guys while accumulating draft picks and see what you can build.


I'm sorry but no. You need stellar basketball players and a winning team. Milwaukee embraces people from elsewhere all of the time...Aaron Rodgers, Ryan Braun, etc. Getting local guys in part because they are local is what gets you Terry Porter as a head coach. It may sell a few tickets early on, but unless it is part of a long-term rebuilding program, it doesn't make sense.

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

That's my point Sultan, you bring those guys in while you are rebuilding and in your losing mode.

[IWB]

Players don't mind playing in Green Bay because they win. True. But the Packers also have a mystique about them especially in regards to the cold. However, they come in during the spring, summer and fall, and are only in Wisconsin for about a month of the cold.

The NBA players are pretty much only in Wisconsin when it is cold and crappy. I had a talk with a coach a while back about the fact that free agents don't want to play in Milwaukee. I mentioned that the problem is that none of them are here over the summer when there is a lot to do and the city looks beautiful. That coach agreed, said the only time NBA players come into town are when they play the bucks and it is cold, gray and sleeting. He agreed it really throws their opinions about Milwaukee off.

[TheSultan]

That's my point Sultan, you bring those guys in while you are rebuilding and in your losing mode.

Well...maybe I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around the concept that we would bring in a bunch of players I like just so they can lose games.

[Goose85]

Players don't mind playing in Green Bay because they win. True. But the Packers also have a mystique about them especially in regards to the cold. However, they come in during the spring, summer and fall, and are only in Wisconsin for about a month of the cold.

The NBA players are pretty much only in Wisconsin when it is cold and crappy. I had a talk with a coach a while back about the fact that free agents don't want to play in Milwaukee. I mentioned that the problem is that none of them are here over the summer when there is a lot to do and the city looks beautiful. That coach agreed, said the only time NBA players come into town are when they play the bucks and it is cold, gray and sleeting. He agreed it really throws their opinions about Milwaukee off.

Not sure I agree about the Packers, as the Pack gets very few high level free agents. Reggie White came for two reasons, a ton of money (pre salary cap) and Brett Favre. Woodson came because his value on the market wasn't what he thought it was, and the Pack overpaid (at the time, looks like a steal now). Can't really think of another high level - highly sought after free agent that came to the Pack.

The Bucks are not going to get top level free agents, so they have to somehow find a core of players through the draft, and then sign mid level guys that can play around them. Not easy to do as the NBA draft is about as much of a crap shoot as anything.

Right now the Bucks have to decide if you can build a winning team around Jennings and Ellis. If the long term answer is no, then trade them and move on.

[TheSultan]

Not sure I agree about the Packers, as the Pack gets very few high level free agents. Reggie White came for two reasons, a ton of money (pre salary cap) and Brett Favre. Woodson came because his value on the market wasn't what he thought it was, and the Pack overpaid (at the time, looks like a steal now). Can't really think of another high level - highly sought after free agent that came to the Pack.


Part of that is because the current Packer administration doesn't seek them out.

But under Ron Wolf they signed Eugene Robinson, Seth Joyner, Don Beebe, Andre Rison, Keith Jackson...all of whom essentially hanging on for one more shot at a ring. Under Mike Sherman they signed Joe Johnson, who was completely forgetable as a Packer but considered a major signing at the time.

[IWB]

Sultan is correct with the reason that Ted Thompson does not go after free agents.

Ron Wolf also got his defensive line - Sean Jones, Santana Dotson and Gilbert Brown.

[MUMac]

Gilbert was a waiver wire acquisition. 4th rounder who the Vikes cut his rookie year.

Don't forget about Ryan Pickett.

The Packers had opportunities to acquire some first class FA's. Some that wanted to play there. Thompson has chosen not to since he acquired Pickett and Woodson.

[Goose85]

Ron Wolf did try to get free agents.
Rison was cut mid season and did not really have other options - not an offseason free agent.
Traded for Keith Jackson, and he almost retired instead of coming to GB.
I'm not sure Seth Joyner even started, or maybe I should say he shouldn't have started.
Robinson was a very good pickup.
Not sure Don Beebe was a top level free agent, but good player.
Joe Johnson was a big free agent - unfortunate.

I guess the point is the Bucks are not dream destination site for top level players so I don't expect any to come to Milw. That's not really Kohl's fault, it is a Wisconsin / cold weather thing. No top guy would choose Cleveland, so Lebron left. Min can't get anyone to join him in Min. Cold weather states are a tough sell for top level free agents.

Edit - nice call on Jones and Dotson IWB, that superbowl team did have a free agent front line.