Handicapping odds of who gets added:

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1221382

At the bottom of this article he gives odds of who gets added... Not sure I agree, but none the less it's an opinion.

[ValiantSailor]

Assuming Xavier is a "no brainer" and IWB's prediction of a 10-team conference, then my hope is that the other nominees are non-Catholic schools. Butler, Memphis, and VCU would be my choices.

If we persist in the "Catholic" aspect of our new conference, we will eventually decline into irrelevance, as recruits will see "Catholic" as the first requirement, and "Basketball" as the second. Look at how the country perceives BYU. They're a "Mormon" school, and everyone associated with that school are members of that faith. Witness Jabari Parker, a top recruit who is considering BYU; why - because he's Mormon. Do you want recruits to look at a "Catholic" conference that way? How long do you think we'll keep our Coach, if he handcuffed by that unwritten rule.

The sooner we can shed the "Catholic" sobriquet and adopt "Basketball" as who we are, the better.

VS

[IrwinFletcher]

I would certainly doubt that being a Catholic would be a requirement for a player or student to attend/play for one of these teams in a Catholic conference. I for one am not against adopting the "Catholic sobriquet", as you state.

[TrevorCandelino]

Not sure whether it should be a "branded" Catholic conference but remember, we are aligning ourselves (rightfully so) with the east coast urban schools. At the high school level, in the east coast urban markets, there is a long, rich history of basketball success within the Catholic high schools........

[JohnnyRev]

Maybe this will surprise some of you, but I REALLLY DON'T WANT to be known as a Catholic league. This is about great basketball, and Catholic is just a distraction and an invitation to anti-Catholic bigotry. Though it is stated as being about sharing our values (e.g., vs cheating, lack of academics...), which in my opinion would eliminate Memphis (also a football school and we left the football schools behind). Butler is almost everyone's top choice, and I'm glad they are not Catholic.

[MUBasketball]

Maybe this will surprise some of you, but I REALLLY DON'T WANT to be known as a Catholic league. This is about great basketball, and Catholic is just a distraction and an invitation to anti-Catholic bigotry. Though it is stated as being about sharing our values (e.g., vs cheating, lack of academics...), which in my opinion would eliminate Memphis (also a football school and we left the football schools behind). Butler is almost everyone's top choice, and I'm glad they are not Catholic.

Totally agree! I cringe when I see "Catholic" in reference to this new conference.

[ValiantSailor]

Maybe this will surprise some of you, but I REALLLY DON'T WANT to be known as a Catholic league. This is about great basketball, and Catholic is just a distraction and an invitation to anti-Catholic bigotry. Though it is stated as being about sharing our values (e.g., vs cheating, lack of academics...), which in my opinion would eliminate Memphis (also a football school and we left the football schools behind). Butler is almost everyone's top choice, and I'm glad they are not Catholic.

Thank you, JohnnyRev. You said it better than I.

VS

[milkbone]

Maybe this will surprise some of you, but I REALLLY DON'T WANT to be known as a Catholic league. This is about great basketball, and Catholic is just a distraction and an invitation to anti-Catholic bigotry. Though it is stated as being about sharing our values (e.g., vs cheating, lack of academics...), which in my opinion would eliminate Memphis (also a football school and we left the football schools behind). Butler is almost everyone's top choice, and I'm glad they are not Catholic.
.
.+1000000

[kneelb4zerg]

Well, conversely, the league shouldn't shy away from good teams just because they happen to be Catholic.

[warriorfan4life]

There will three additions, one of which will definitely be Catholic (Xavier) and one of which is not religiously affiliated (Butler). For team ten, there are two very good Catholic options in Creighton and Gonzaga and one very good public one is VCU.

[ValiantSailor]

Well, conversely, the league shouldn't shy away from good teams just because they happen to be Catholic.

If the league is concerned about the long-term viability as a high major conference, they should absolutely shy away - for exactly the reasons JohnnyRev specified. Most of the schools may well be Catholic, but that's not what we're here for. Don't let the message be confused; we are about Basketball.

Or we can be like BYU, making do with whatever Catholic recruits choose MU.

VS

[kneelb4zerg]

If the league is concerned about the long-term viability as a high major conference, they should absolutely shy away - for exactly the reasons JohnnyRev specified. Most of the schools may well be Catholic, but that's not what we're here for. Don't let the message be confused; we are about Basketball.

Or we can be like BYU, making do with whatever Catholic recruits choose MU.

VS

So don't take Xavier or Gonzaga because they are Catholic? That's idiotic. We can brand it as being about basketball no matter the membership.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

So don't take Xavier or Gonzaga because they are Catholic? That's idiotic. We can brand it as being about basketball no matter the membership.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that (until maybe VS's post), I don't think JohnnyRev was even suggesting that. I think his hope was that we have at least 1-3 non-Catholic schools. I'm hoping both VCU and Butler are on the short list because while it would leave us primarily Catholic, no one could accurately call us a Catholic league.

You go for the best schools. At least 2 or 3 of the top 5 available schools are non-Catholic. That's just reality. If you take Gonzaga, Creighton, and Xavier that's perfectly fine, but the hope is you also get VCU and Butler. What I want are quality programs that are committed to building their basketball programs. The rest will fall into place from there.

[ValiantSailor]

So don't take Xavier or Gonzaga because they are Catholic? That's idiotic. We can brand it as being about basketball no matter the membership.

It's not idiotic if it means the success of the league. But if you want to put all the major Catholic teams in a hole from which no one can escape, then do it. I expect Xavier will join; I hope the next two will be non-Catholic (Butler, Memphis, or VCU). If the conference expands to twelve, I'd take the one left out from the earlier list plus another Catholic school.

The point is that in the perception of the public, this conference must be about BASKETBALL.

The C-7 needs to become the BB-10.

VS

[Phantom Warrior]

MU fans should ask themselves the following questions: if we wanted to upgrade our non-conference schedule next season, which of the following programs would we want to schedule - Dayton, Creighton, St. Louis, or Gonzaga? Which school would we want to meet in a major tournament? Which school would we most want to see visit the BC on a home and home basis?

I rest my case.

[ValiantSailor]

Butler or Memphis

VS

[Mark Miller]

Almost a done deal, IMO, that the three additions will be Xavier, Butler and Dayton.

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

Dayton? Any reason why them and not Creighton?

[MUMac]

Dayton? Any reason why them and not Creighton?

I am guessing geography mattered. For both the conference and Creighton.

[ValiantSailor]

Dayton? Any reason why them and not Creighton?

Sweetens the pot for Xavier - a traditional rival.

VS

[unclejohn]

Sweetens the pot for Xavier - a traditional rival.

VS

Not a bad choice. I am not sure I would choose them over Creighton or Saint Louis, but not a bad choice. Dayton has been consistently strong, has made the NCAA tournament often, and has a good fan base.
They are a worthy opponent.

[WindyCityGoldenEagle]

Love the school (my sister and cousins are there now) but as far as joining the conference, dayton just doesnt do much for me, sorry.

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

Love the school (my sister and cousins are there now) but as far as joining the conference, dayton just doesnt do much for me, sorry.

Agreed, however I'd change my tune if someday they go to 12 teams and add St. Louis and Creighton.

[kneelb4zerg]

How is it that Creighton and SLU are that much more exciting than Dayton? Creighton is ranked right now, but what happens when McDermott graduates?

[IWB]

Creighton has one of the top attendances in the country every year, an impressive program.

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

Look at the Sargin ratings, those take into account the last 10 years and Creighton is ranked above Dayton... So I guess if your going to question what happens to Creighton going forward you have to question even more Dayton. Creighton was a solid program even before McDermott and everyone points to Dayton's fans... Well Creighton draws more per game so that's a moot point. Creighton brings everything Dayton brings except they being a little more.

I'm sorry but if you ask people around the nation what is the better basketball program I'm almost certain people will go with Creighton. Perception is everything right now... As for St. Louis I don't think they should be in over Dayton, but I think if we go 12 they should be in.

[kneelb4zerg]

Fair enough re Creighton, but I still think Dayton is a solid choice which makes more sense than Creighton for a variety of reasons.

[IWB]

2011-12 Home game attendance....



<colgroup><col><col><col><col><col></colgroup><tbody>
Rank
School
Games
Total
Avg









The Big East 7



13
Marquette
16
242,205
15,138


35
Georgetown
16
180,530
11,283


39
Xavier
16
162,474
10,155


44
Villanova
15
133,839
8,923


54
St. John's
20
168,560
8,428


63
Providence
17
134,007
7,883


67
DePaul
17
123,832
7,740


76
Seton Hall
18
124,935
6,941









Big East Candidates



6
Creighton
16
266632
16665


28
Dayton
18
218776
12154


66
St. Louis
16
124106
7757


78
Butler
19
125376
6599


85
Gonzaga
18
105610
6212









Iscariot Wing



2
Syracuse
19
448,736
23,618


3
Louisville
20
430,052
21,503


46
Pittsburgh
22
193,616
8,801


61
Notre Dame
17
135,975
7,999


98
Rutgers
18
96,511
5,362









Unfortunate Castaways



11
Memphis
20
324,670
16,234


26
UConn
17
214873
12640


58
Temple
13
106143
8165


59
Cincinnati
18
145235
8069


92
UCF
17
97297
5723


USF, Houston, SMU & Tulane not top 100


</tbody>

[MUBRACES]

I don't understand why Dayton makes more sense "for a variety of reasons"...... Such as? Creighton has more attendance, puts us in a market that we wouldn't already have (as would be the case with Dayton and Xavier), is a catholic institution (which some dont necessarily care about), is closer to Milwaukee than Dayton, they have a top notch soccer stadium and soccer program, if MU were to develop a baseball team they could play at the Home of the college World Series in the new TD Ameritrade ballpark, they would pull in more revenue and raise the price for the tv deal highe......maybe it's just me but I don't see why Dayton makes more sense than creighton

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

I don't think adding Dayton is a mistake, but I think not adding Creighton is. IWB I know you said that they will start with 10 but have they mentioned anything about going with 12? I just think 12 makes more sense.

[kneelb4zerg]

Creighton versus Dayton is just not that much of a difference for me to get worked up over, for many of the reasons already stated on the insider board and which I am too lazy to rehash here.

[Nukem2]

I don't think adding Dayton is a mistake, but I think not adding Creighton is. IWB I know you said that they will start with 10 but have they mentioned anything about going with 12? I just think 12 makes more sense.I think we end up with 12 or 14. Quwestion is how to gravitate to that.........now or then....?

[unclejohn]

Well of course we will have to see how this plays out, but if it comes to 10 right now, it may well be that the league expands to 12 soon, and if so, SLU and Creighton are natural candidates. Perhaps the lobbying is going on right now. I would love to see them added, and I think that would make a great 12-team league, but I do not think their absence exactly ruins things.

[Gato78]

In the Creighton vs Dayton debate, I give the edge to Dayton because of a larger east coast presence. All other things seem equal.

[TheSultan]

I don't understand why Dayton makes more sense "for a variety of reasons"...... Such as? Creighton has more attendance, puts us in a market that we wouldn't already have (as would be the case with Dayton and Xavier), is a catholic institution (which some dont necessarily care about), is closer to Milwaukee than Dayton, they have a top notch soccer stadium and soccer program, if MU were to develop a baseball team they could play at the Home of the college World Series in the new TD Ameritrade ballpark, they would pull in more revenue and raise the price for the tv deal highe......maybe it's just me but I don't see why Dayton makes more sense than creighton


Dayton is a Catholic institution and is over 100 miles closer to Milwaukee than Creighton is. They are very similar schools, but Creighton simply has had more recent success. I really can't get worked up over one or the other.

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

After reading Dayton's board last night selfishly I want them to be left out... Their fans were some of the most arrogant I've ever seen. I was very surprised the negativity about joining the new big east.

[IWB]

Dayton's fans don't want in? Wow. Screw them, the only reason why they would not want in is fear of losing.

[TheSultan]

Dayton's fans don't want in? Wow. Screw them, the only reason why they would not want in is fear of losing.


If it's the UDPride board, they are delusional. He's been coming to Scoop talking about how the A10 is united and BE basketball schools will be begging for admittance when it inevitably breaks apart.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?action=profile;u=2479;sa=showPosts

[RudyFlyer]

One of the Flyer Faithful forwarded this thread. We've been discussing the possibilities all week and have also seen numerous reports from various sources. Some of our inside sources also say we're a lock, however, some of us are very skeptical that if it's 10, we could be on the outside looking in.

I would say that there is some disagreement amongst Flyer fans, however, the majority believes if given the opportunity to join the BE7 we'd be foolish to turn it down. We've been dreaming of the Papal League forming for years. Many of us know that joining forces with the BE7 will significantly improve our schedule each year and will work wonders on our recruiting and NCAA success in the long run.

[TheSultan]

One of the Flyer Faithful forwarded this thread. We've been discussing the possibilities all week and have also seen numerous reports from various sources. Some of our inside sources also say we're a lock, however, some of us are very skeptical that if it's 10, we could be on the outside looking in.

I would say that there is some disagreement amongst Flyer fans, however, the majority believes if given the opportunity to join the BE7 we'd be foolish to turn it down. We've been dreaming of the Papal League forming for years. Many of us know that joining forces with the BE7 will significantly improve our schedule each year and will work wonders on our recruiting and NCAA success in the long run.


Yeah, you can't turn this down. You never turn down an opportunity to upgrade your conference when you can. Marquette has moved from the MCC to the Great Midwest to the CUSA to the BE, and each step has been seen as a huge improvement.

[Phantom Warrior]

Which board? I tried Scout, and there is nothing on that board at all, and Rivals doesn't even seem to have a board. Can you link the site? I'd love to see that thread.

As far as Dayton goes, the Flyers have five straight 20 win seasons and five straight post-season appearances, but their appearances in the Big Dance are few and far between. In short, I'm not quite getting why some Dayton fans would be so arrogant.

This year Dayton has beaten Auburn, Alabama, and BC (by 16). But they are still generally picked to be middle-of-the-pack in the A-10. Again, why so arrogant?

There was some bad blood between UD and MU a few years back when we stiffed them in a scheduled game to play Arizona on national t.v.

Speaking of national t.v., UD fans must be elated over the A-10 t.v. package if they don't want to join a new league. And they must love the few NCAA credits the league has gotten the past several years.

In short, those who would decline an invitiation are idiots.

[ShabazBrown]

To clarify from a UD fan's perspective, the vast majority want to be included in the new league. Everyone I know has our fingers crossed and we generally regard UDPride group as a little nutty.

[RudyFlyer]

Phantom, these are threads on dayton.rivals.com. This is a premium site so not sure if you'll have access.

Most of the Flyer Faithful feel we make more sense than SLU and Butler, reasoning for this includes but it not limited to our profit stream, facilities, success in other sports (soccer, women's hoops and vball) and rabid fan base. Our recent woes in the A10 and NCAA postseason are obviously not helping our case here. In addition, many argue our proximity to X and smaller market in Dayton are reasons why Butler and SLU have a slight edge.

Archie Miller has been a great hire and is starting to build some momentum for the Flyers. Our 2013-14 class is the best we've had in a long while plus a big time transfer from OSU. I feel very strongly that if we're not included in this new conference all this momentum will be lost. Our only hope then would be to play for the A-10 title each year and follow in the footsteps of schools like Gonzaga, Butler and Creighton who compete year in, year out. But selling that to kids will be a lot harder in my opinion compared to selling kids on renewed rivalry with X and new rivalries with MU, Nova and co.

Selfishly, as a Chicago native I would one of many eager for road trips to Milwaukee every year. No more neutral site games vs Marquette.

[IWB]

Dayton fans - thanks for finding our message boards, and welcome aboard!

[Nukem2]

Joe Lunardi says the C7 should go to 12 or 14 teams to maximize its NCAA potential.

[ValiantSailor]

Joe Lunardi says the C7 should go to 12 or 14 teams to maximize its NCAA potential.

Just so we don't end up duplicating the mistakes of C-USA and the Big East..."Conference Everybody Else".

I don't see any problems with stopping at ten as a starting point, then adding more as needed.

Meanwhile, who's calling the shots in the C-7? Is it a consortium of presidents, ADs, or both. I think the leadership issue needs to be addressed before anything else.

VS

[Nukem2]

Yep, there needs to be clear leadership other than a prez of a BE7 school. Tranghese...Dan Gavitt...or even Marinatto. Need someone very quickly who knows what the heck he is doing....

[MUMac]

Yep, there needs to be clear leadership other than a prez of a BE7 school. Tranghese...Dan Gavitt...or even Marinatto. Need someone very quickly who knows what the heck he is doing....

Need a Dave Gavitt type to get it rolling.

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

Here is a link: http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?p=285760#post285760

There are a few other threads too on the topic... Sounds like the few that have come over here are saying UD pride is a bit nutty though so maybe I'm sure looking at the minority.

Jim I've tried to pass our board info on to opposing fans as I've visited their board, they all seem to head to scout, but I think this site is leap years better for discussion.

[Goose85]

Joe Lunardi says the C7 should go to 12 or 14 teams to maximize its NCAA potential.

The conference needs to weight the amount of TV revenue that can be expected with 10 -12 -14 teams vs. the increase in NCAA revenue that could be possible by increasing the number of conference members beyond 10. As the conference moves beyond 10, there needs to be an expectation that there would be an increase in teams going to the NCAA.

Let's say the TV money for each school is a constant $3 mil if they go with a 10 or 12 school league.
Then, if the decision is to expand past 10 to 12 schools, the two schools added to make 12 will have to result in an expectation that at least one of the two added teams will be a NCAA bid school most every year (raise the average overall NCAA bids per year). If that is not the case, then the 10 members will be actually losing money by adding the two new teams.

Bottom line, if the tv money is the same, going to 12 by adding SLU and Dayton may cost each conference members money if at least one of those schools does not annually add to the NCAA tournament money the conference receives.

[MUBasketball]

Yep, there needs to be clear leadership other than a prez of a BE7 school. Tranghese...Dan Gavitt...or even Marinatto. Need someone very quickly who knows what the heck he is doing....

I just vomited in my mouth.

[MUBRACES]

I kind of hope its creighton or gonzaga, or VCU before dayton for many reasons, but their arrogance just adds another to the list. I for one will laugh heartedly if they aren't asked to join and Butler and X are. Then see their tune change on their board....I suspect they will ask the president of UCONN how to properly get on their hands and knees begging to be a part of this new conference.

[UDDoug]

Priders are f-ing nuts unfortunately it is the most active forum. You have been warned. Given that, most of them seem to be pro move.

I think the others may be paranoid from when we moved to Great Midwest and promptly crapped the bed in the 90s. I dont anticipate that happening again with Archie this time.

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

Glad to know that the rest of you are more down to earth, I went over there and was quite blown away. I am ALWAYS happy to have level headed quests though.

[lmdramos]

Hi, Creighton fan here from Omaha. I know the general consensus from everybody is they would absolutely love to be in this conference. Also, being a Creighton fan we fear that Creighton will be left out of this conference just based on it's geography. I would think that the Catholic 7 school would have to look at Creighton above Dayton unless Xavier is absolutely fighting for Dayton to be in with them. How could you not want to enter into a new market (dayton doesn't do that) with a great team that is very well support? I mean every night Creighton is playing in front of 18,000 fans, no matter the opponent...I've got to think that counts for something. Is there any truth to the article in that NJ Star ledger that Xavier, Butler, and Creighton are who they first want. And I'm not to bash Dayton...they are a great school but I think if it is 10 teams...Creighton would be the better choice, and I'm not just saying that because I'm a Creighton fan. I think this league has much more potential as a 12 team conference. I know your guys trusted Marquette source seem to think it's a done deal with Xavier, Butler, and Dayton being a 10 team conference.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Strictly personaly opinion, lmdramos, I have Creighton at #5 on my list. Xavier, Butler, Gonzaga, and VCU are the teams I'd take first. My main worry with Creighton is if they'll maintain when McDermott leaves. But I still would put them ahead of Dayton.

The impression I get from what I've heard is that Creighton is a maybe if we go to 10, but I feel confident they'd be included if we went to 12. Also, I'm not convinced we'll do this all at once. I could see adding 3 for the first season or 2, then expanding to 12.

[MKE_GoldenEagleFan]

I'd like to go 12 right away and add X, Butler, Creighton, Dayton, and St. Louis in that order... Then if in some crazy way G'Town takes off for the ACC we grab VCU.

[UDDoug]

X does NOT give the dayton market at all. The Dayton market is somewhat Bigger than Omaha. Creighton has better recent success than UD but "worse" geography. I hope for 12 w/ Creighton SLU and Dayton but not sure of economics.

[BLT]

VCU has higher rated RPI's in hoops and other team sports. Have to take them in the C10. I also wonder how quick the holy fathers move to 12-14...as they seem to be sensitive to not causing too much conference turmoil especially considering their Catholic brethern's positions. I like 14, but am guessing they move slowly unless ESPN says differently.

[TheSultan]

X does NOT give the dayton market at all. The Dayton market is somewhat Bigger than Omaha. Creighton has better recent success than UD but "worse" geography. I hope for 12 w/ Creighton SLU and Dayton but not sure of economics.


This really isn't about the Dayton or Omaha markets. This is about what program fits the conference better and is a better brand for basketball. And no offense, but you are talking about schools that have had to take road trips to Florida. Going to Omaha wouldn't be a problem.

[ValiantSailor]

This really isn't about the Dayton or Omaha markets. This is about what program fits the conference better and is a better brand for basketball. And no offense, but you are talking about schools that have had to take road trips to Florida. Going to Omaha wouldn't be a problem.

I agree Omaha wouldn't be a problem.

When Marquette joined the BE, there were posters from the original schools who thought travel to Milwaukee would be a problem. They got used to it.

VS

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

X does NOT give the dayton market at all. The Dayton market is somewhat Bigger than Omaha. Creighton has better recent success than UD but "worse" geography. I hope for 12 w/ Creighton SLU and Dayton but not sure of economics.

Would you mind making the case for Dayton? So far, I don't really see what they add. The First Four is nice, but I'd much rather a team playing in the tourney and adding tourney shares than one that's simply mentioned for the tournament's least-watched games. We will already have an Ohio presence with Xavier, I get what you're saying about the Dayton market, but does anyone other than Ohio State really truly give anyone any Ohio markets? Creighton at least expands the footprint, not only from a television perspective but also recruiting-wise. Any recruit that can go to Dayton can just as easily go to Cincinnati.

What has Dayton done to improve their program recently? Archie Miller seems like a good hire, is he likely to stick around? How new are the practice facilities and workout areas? How has recruiting been going? Is this a team ready to make a trip to the NCAAs this year?

I really don't mean this as an attack, I just want to know what it is Dayton brings that other schools like Creighton (with better attendance and a bigger footprint) or SLU (with brand new facilities, a better market, and a bigger footprint) can't bring.

[MUBB713]

Joe lunardi wants st joes in the conference. That's why he wants 12-14.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

You mean this post?


100% disagree. No unconn or Cincy or any football teams. Look at mess of be right now. These teams will leave sooner or later and then it's right back to the same situation now trying to figure out who is invited and joins. Way all this realignment is going who knows where c7 league will even be when those schools would decide to leave. Take the best bball schools available now with 12 team league and build on that

If so, it was in another thread. Regardless, I'm honestly asking why Dayton is a better team to add than VCU, St. Louis, Creighton, Richmond, Gonzaga, or any of the other teams that have been mentioned after Xavier and Butler. I'm not saying that to be close-minded, I'm saying that because, as your other post pointed out, you want to take the best basketball schools available now and build on that. What's the case for Dayton being one of those 5 schools?

[Notherdude]

You mean this post?



If so, it was in another thread. Regardless, I'm honestly asking why Dayton is a better team to add than VCU, St. Louis, Creighton, Richmond, Gonzaga, or any of the other teams that have been mentioned after Xavier and Butler. I'm not saying that to be close-minded, I'm saying that because, as your other post pointed out, you want to take the best basketball schools available now and build on that. What's the case for Dayton being one of those 5 schools?

I know I update my other post. I clicked wrong thread on my iPad. Links are all to close together for no mouse.

I don't know that dayton is the better choice. Looking at stats, revenue, attendance both ud and creighton are about equal. I've never been to creighton and have never seen ud facilities that the players and admins would see. Which ever way this tips it's going to be getting a good team. I'd much rather see 12 team league though and make this league as strong as possible from very beginning

[Goose85]

C7 + Bulter and Xavier. Does the conference add one or three? I am sure there are more pro / cons for each, but here is a quick look.

VCU
Pro - Program on the rise. Smart as coach. Putting money into facilities, close to DC. New market. 5 NCAA trips with 3 different coaches since 2002.
Con - What if Smart leaves?

Creighton
Pro - 8 trips to NCAA since 1999. Facilities, fan support, consistently good program. New footprint into NE.
Con - Distance from other schools.

SLU
Pro - Big market. Sounds like they are committing $$ to athletics. Good add regionally if Creighton is added. New footprint into MO.
Con - Lack of NCAA bids. Not a consistent winning program.

Dayton
Pro - Fan support. Decent market that follows college hoops.
Con - Lack of NCAA bids. In same state as Xavier.

If three are added I think two of them need to be VCU and Creighton. If only one is added I actually think VCU makes the most sense. Non a religious school so the religious moniker is lost, new market, success, and in the east near Georgetown.

[ValiantSailor]

If three are added I think two of them need to be VCU and Creighton. If only one is added I actually think VCU makes the most sense. Non a religious school so the religious moniker is lost, new market, success, and in the east near Georgetown.

Makes sense to me....

VS

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

My thoughts on Goose's nice quick-hitter...


VCU
Pro - Program on the rise. Smart as coach. Putting money into facilities, close to DC. New market. 5 NCAA trips with 3 different coaches since 2002.
Con - What if Smart leaves?

Let's put that another way...

Con - What if Smart leaves?
Pro - 5 NCAA trips with 3 different coaches since 2002.

They seem to be pretty good at hiring coaches.


Creighton
Pro - 8 trips to NCAA since 1999. Facilities, fan support, consistently good program. New footprint into NE.
Con - Distance from other schools.

It's no worse than Tampa for distance.


SLU
Pro - Big market. Sounds like they are committing $$ to athletics. Good add regionally if Creighton is added. New footprint into MO.
Con - Lack of NCAA bids. Not a consistent winning program.

Exactly right. It looked like Majerus had them trending up, but will that continue?


Dayton
Pro - Fan support. Decent market that follows college hoops.
Con - Lack of NCAA bids. In same state as Xavier.

I'd add Archie Miller to the pro list, he seems like a keeper. But that lack of bids is a big con.

If it's one of the four, I agree with VCU. If it's three of them, I would leave Dayton out because at least SLU brings a new state, a new market, and is a good regional add along with Creighton. Program-wise, St. Louis is about on par with Dayton, but I think they have bigger upside. Creighton may not in as big a market as Dayton, but they are without question the most successful college basketball school in their state, whereas Dayton is at best fourth or fifth (tOSU, Cincy, Xavier, maybe the Ohio Bobcats?) in Ohio.

[TheSultan]

C7 + Bulter and Xavier. Does the conference add one or three? I am sure there are more pro / cons for each, but here is a quick look.
If three are added I think two of them need to be VCU and Creighton. If only one is added I actually think VCU makes the most sense. Non a religious school so the religious moniker is lost, new market, success, and in the east near Georgetown.

Butler isn't a religious school.

[Goose85]

Butler isn't a religious school.

And I'm sure they would be happy if they weren't the only one.

[lmdramos]

i know you guys are saying quality over market when comparing Creighton to Dayton but I don't understand what you mean by a bigger market. Omaha has 878,000 people in its metro area with 1.2 Million with in a 50 mile radius. Dayton has 841,000 people in the metro area and you can't count Cincinnati since that belongs to Xavier.

[TheSultan]

And I'm sure they would be happy if they weren't the only one.


Really? Is it that big of a deal? They played for years in the MCC/Horizon as the only non-religious, private school.

[2013UnleashTheBeast]

i know you guys are saying quality over market when comparing Creighton to Dayton but I don't understand what you mean by a bigger market. Omaha has 878,000 people in its metro area with 1.2 Million with in a 50 mile radius. Dayton has 841,000 people in the metro area and you can't count Cincinnati since that belongs to Xavier.

With Creighton, you get the whole state of Nebraska, not just Omaha. No one in that state gives even the tiniest sh!t about Nebraska basketball. They're all Husker football fans & Creighton hoops fans. Ohio is Ohio State, Cincinnati, Xavier fandom, then a huge step down to Dayton following. I'm sure you knew that though, and are just in a state of massive denial at this point.

As to the point of bringing Dayton to appease Xavier for the rivalry aspect, that is handled easily: play them every year in the non-con, exactly as they do with Cincinnati. Problem solved. They get to keep the rivalry while adding a clear step up in conference over Dayton for recruiting purposes.

[lmdramos]

thanks for clarifying...cause I really didn't understand why they were saying dayton has the better market when they don't. FYI just to be clear I am not a Dayton fan...Im a Creighton fan. It kinda sounda like you though I was a Dayton fan

[ValiantSailor]

Really? Is it that big of a deal? They played for years in the MCC/Horizon as the only non-religious, private school.

And was the MCC/Horizon a high-major conference?

If you want a sure road to mid-major status, just band all the Catholic schools together, making sure that religion is the prime unifying factor. You could even have conferences with Jesuit versus non-Jesuit schools. Wouldn't that be fun?

Or you could establish a conference based on basketball! What a radical concept. Of course, that might include secular schools. What to do....

VS

[TheSultan]

And was the MCC/Horizon a high-major conference?

If you want a sure road to mid-major status, just band all the Catholic schools together, making sure that religion is the prime unifying factor. You could even have conferences with Jesuit versus non-Jesuit schools. Wouldn't that be fun?

Or you could establish a conference based on basketball! What a radical concept. Of course, that might include secular schools. What to do....

VS


I don't disagree with you at all....but you did help clarify Goose's point so thank you.

[2013UnleashTheBeast]

thanks for clarifying...cause I really didn't understand why they were saying dayton has the better market when they don't. FYI just to be clear I am not a Dayton fan...Im a Creighton fan. It kinda sounda like you though I was a Dayton fan

I did and I apologize! Read too fast! We're on the same side, I would love to add you guys, for sure over Dayton.

[UDDoug]

i know you guys are saying quality over market when comparing Creighton to Dayton but I don't understand what you mean by a bigger market. Omaha has 878,000 people in its metro area with 1.2 Million with in a 50 mile radius. Dayton has 841,000 people in the metro area and you can't count Cincinnati since that belongs to Xavier.

I was just going by a Nielson market size list I found.

http://www.nielsen.com/content/dam/corporate/us/en/public%20factsheets/tv/nielsen-2012-local-DMA-TV-penetration.pdf

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

I was just going by a Nielson market size list I found.

http://www.nielsen.com/content/dam/corporate/us/en/public%20factsheets/tv/nielsen-2012-local-DMA-TV-penetration.pdf

The Nielsen ratings don't measure population, they measure households. So if you have larger households and more families in Omaha compared to more single-person households in Dayton, it would follow that they have a larger television market even with a smaller population size. Perhaps having UD, Wright State, and Wright-Pat all in that area contributes to that.

But as mentioned, Creighton gives more than just Omaha. Anyone in the state of Nebraska watching the "local" team is watching Creighton. That's not the case in Ohio by any means.

[UDDoug]

Would you mind making the case for Dayton? So far, I don't really see what they add. The First Four is nice, but I'd much rather a team playing in the tourney and adding tourney shares than one that's simply mentioned for the tournament's least-watched games.

I'll try to answer your questions. I don't count the First Four as a plus. I consider it something the school does for the community to bring in outside dollars I'm probably in the minority about that, I suppose. It may be good to have the new conference logo on TV, maybe?


We will already have an Ohio presence with Xavier, I get what you're saying about the Dayton market, but does anyone other than Ohio State really truly give anyone any Ohio markets?

Ohio State basketball is a funny thing... The Cinci region plays to a mix of UC, UK, OSU, and X. There are many fans of all those basketball programs who are rabid OSU football fans, this is why UC is in their current predicament. Dayton plays very strongly to UD and would not swing to X. If UD closed its doors it may swing strongly to OSU but would probably fracture to UC, UK and OSU.


Creighton at least expands the footprint, not only from a television perspective but also recruiting-wise. Any recruit that can go to Dayton can just as easily go to Cincinnati.

Yes, but there's more recruits to go around in this region. Dayton has generally performed well in recruiting talent development was a serious issue under BG.


What has Dayton done to improve their program recently? Archie Miller seems like a good hire, is he likely to stick around? How new are the practice facilities and workout areas? How has recruiting been going? Is this a team ready to make a trip to the NCAAs this year?

Well they just lost to Ill. State at home so I'm pretty pumped about that... Training facilities at the stadium are from just before 2000. New basketball offices and practice facility were completed just a year ago I think. The arena is older but in decent shape, school owned. I like Archie because he has recruited fairly well and players who were stagnant under BG (a good recruited but poor talent developer IMO) showed significant development under Archie last year. Unfortunately BG ran off half of the current Junior class before he left, and his recruits followed suit so Archie is dealing with depth issues especially at PG/SG. I don't think they will make the tourney because of the depth issues. UD can keep a coach as long as any school of similar size with no massive football cash treasure chest, revenues are strong and they are not afraid to commit to multi-year deals. They committed to BG at a nice salary and for many years but things began to sour here (even we get sick of NIT appearances) he read the writing on the wall and UD was willing to let him walk. If Archie proves out then they will raise/extend him. There are very few college jobs where coaches don't leave for the money. Butler is very lucky.

UD men's BB does have very, very solid revenues. From a 'Nova site: can-we-afford-this (http://www.vuhoops.com/big-east/2012/12/17/3773760/can-we-afford-this-catholic-7-villanova-conference-change-big-east)
(UD is not included in the table but the dollars are referred to in the text. For reference the numbers are given in an editors note at the end.)

A big part of this is owning a med-large basketball arena but the school is able to sell games to local broadcast channels such as Fox Sports Ohio, local broadcast etc. These are potential revenue streams which a new conference could use to sell the games a national network doesn't pick up. All but three games will be televised which is a nice ratio.


I really don't mean this as an attack, I just want to know what it is Dayton brings that other schools like Creighton (with better attendance and a bigger footprint) or SLU (with brand new facilities, a better market, and a bigger footprint) can't bring.

UD's financial base and general commitment/foundation are extremely solid. Unfortunately, the men's team is inconsistent and will regularly win games against BCS-conference schools but play down to inferior opponents. There is nothing structurally wrong with the UD program, it is extremely healthy, we just need to get the ball rolling on the court.

I'm not here to rip on Creighton, I'm impressed with the Creighton program and wouldn't be at all upset if they were chosen over UD, it makes sense from a basketball standpoint. SLU's entire argument is based on potential television market size.