National anthem

[Smitty]

Long time reader, small time poster....

Has anyone given a thought to whether the taking a knee protest will spread to college bball? Not seeing it in football yet. Do college coaches wield more influence over the players so they can prevent it? What if MU players did it?

[2012Warrior]

Nigel Hayes had his own form of protest last year by standing behind the line of teammates. I think a few others did that as well.

[MayorBeluga]

Can we, as a society, please, please, please keep politics out of sport? Can't we have anywhere to escape from it? I know, it's like asking for a magic potion made from unicorn farts, but a Mayor can dream.

[TheSultan]

Long time reader, small time poster....

Has anyone given a thought to whether the taking a knee protest will spread to college bball? Not seeing it in football yet. Do college coaches wield more influence over the players so they can prevent it? What if MU players did it?


Yes. Pro players have economic options that college players do not. And professional coaches are way down on the "control freak scale" compared to most college coaches.

[Smitty]

Can we, as a society, please, please, please keep politics out of sport? Can't we have anywhere to escape from it? I know, it's like asking for a magic potion made from unicorn farts, but a Mayor can dream.

I hear ya, mayor.

[TheSultan]

And no...we can't keep politics out of sport. Never have, never will.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Can we, as a society, please, please, please keep politics out of sport? Can't we have anywhere to escape from it? I know, it's like asking for a magic potion made from unicorn farts, but a Mayor can dream.

If you want politics out of sports, stop playing the national anthem. It's basically a mandated political statement to start every sporting event. And as you can't legally compel people to adhere to specific political beliefs, we will have politics in sport as long as we have both the national anthem played and the Constitution existent.

[MUBasketball]

If you want politics out of sports, stop playing the national anthem. It's basically a mandated political statement to start every sporting event. And as you can't legally compel people to adhere to specific political beliefs, we will have politics in sport as long as we have both the national anthem played and the Constitution existent.

Interesting. I never really gave it any thought but now I am questioning it -- why is the national anthem played before sporting events? Kind of strange when you think about it.

[TedBaxter]

And no...we can't keep politics out of sport. Never have, never will.

Can we keep the political topics off of a designated basketball message board like this one?

[Phantom Warrior]

Unfortunately politics have been thrust into the spotlight vis a vis sports in general, not just with respect to the NFL. Of course, it's not the first time that has happened.

I was not around in 1936, but from what I've read and seen, politics was very present in the Olympics in Berlin that year. The same holds true when Tommie Smith and John Carlos raised their fists on the podium during the 1968 Olympics or when the U.S. pulled out of the Olympics in 1980 for political reasons. And of course the "Miracle on Ice" definitely had political overtones as did Russia's upset of the U.S. in basketball in 1972.

Of course, what's different this time around is that this is not the Olympics, does not involve Russia, and is not international.

Still, I think the original post in this thread asks an important question, one that is germane to this particular board. Will what is happening now in the NFL have any carry-over to college basketball, in general, and to MU basketball, in particular?

One possibility, of course, is that the entire controversy will have died down and become a non-issue by the time MU's first game comes around.

But another possibility is that this issue will still be very much alive, especially if any NBA teams or individual players decide to kneel during the anthem or even not come out on the court until after the anthem is played.

Personally, I have a hunch that at least some NBA players or teams will choose to react in one form or another, which will then also put college teams in an uncomfortable position when their seasons start.

I have no idea what Wojo, Scholl, or Lovell, let alone the players, will ultimately decide to do, but I am guessing that the issue either has already been discussed to some degree or will be discussed in the near future by all parties involved not only in MU men's hoops but in all other sports as well.

In short, I think this is a valid topic for discussion on this board.

Those of us old enough to have watched MU during Al's tenure certainly recall when MU players, including star Dean Meminger, considered carrying out a boycott. Al intervened, and the proposed boycott died on the vine.

But back to the present - my guess is that all MU players and coaches will stand during the anthem. But what if even one player, let alone two or three, decide to kneel during the anthem? It could happen. Then what?

Will the administration come down on those individuals? If so, how? Will they be suspended? Reprimanded? Benched?

Will some/many fans boo those players? That's a possibility.

One thing I'm fairly certain of is that each player on MU's roster is already asking himself what he would/will do when the anthem is played during the first game of the season.

[DCwarrior]

They should just stop playing the anthem before all games (high school, college and professional). It becomes a non-issue then and we can get back to enjoying sports.

[Phantom Warrior]

I doubt that will happen. Playing or singing the anthem at sporting events - from high school through professional - is a tradition ingrained in the fabric of American society.

Not playing/singing the anthem would itself be politicized. Some would applaud that decision. Others would be outraged and would condemn it. In short, the controversy would not only still exist but it could become even more of an issue with even greater emotional input/output on both sides than there is now.

[Goose85]

Funny how all of a sudden people are so interested in what people should and shouldn't do with respect to the flag. I think most of that started around 9/11, as I recall going to games when teams weren't even on the field / court during the anthem.

I find it interesting that people are so bent out of shape for a guy taking a knee. Take a knee and you are garbage and the US President calls you a SOB, but those same fans never seemed to care much when their team had players that were drug dealers in college (like Driver) or hit women, or took performance enhancing drugs, or have assaulted others, etc. I have also long seen people at high school, college, and pro events that keep talking, look around, or in general don't pay attention during the anthem. There were photographers running all over during the anthem last night taking pictures, TV cameras, etc - they paid no attention to the anthem, didn't stand still or look at the flag at all. I'd bet some even took a knee to get a better shot of the players during the anthem.

Interesting, I was watching the game last night and one of the 'flag rules' is that a flag should never be carried horizontally, and yet last night there was the flag, being held horizontally across the field. Interesting that there was no public outcry that the flag was being disrespected by being displayed horizontally. I'm sure there will be public outcry today about the disrespectful presentation of the flag at last nights game.
Also, the flag is not to be on clothing, or stitched to any thing like a pillow, etc. Yet every 4th of July I see flag t-shirts all over the place, yet no backlash when Walmart disrespects the flag by selling shirts, towels, etc with a flag on them.

I guess we only sometimes care about what we consider disrespecting the flag.

[TheSultan]

The problem it used to be simply playing the National Anthem. But it has morphed into football-field sized flags, flyovers at every game, fireworks, veteran recognition (that was paid for), etc. The NFL (and other leagues) have used patriotism to their advantage, especially since 9/11. I mean, I love the country and all, but the spectacle often borders on the outrageous.

[Nukem2]

The protests, other than the backlash to the recent Trump tweets , really have not been political. More about police harassment and police shootings relative to minority communities. Personally, I have no issue with those protests. Unfortunately, the far greater issues in those communities relate to poverty, jobs, economics and crimes. Those issues are not unique to our country. Look at Europe, India and on and on. differnet minorities, but the same issues.

[MU/Panther]

Just stand for the flag and shut up!! :)

[Goose85]

Just stand for the flag and shut up!! :)

I did see a picture on a news site talking about how a stadium worker in Buffalo was so upset he quit his job on the spot. Funny, in the picture attached to the story is a photographer, on one knee, taking a picture of the players during the anthem. I'd imagine there are people calling for him to lose his job today, but I can't find that story anywhere.

What's next, the flag carried horizontally, or the flag showing up on apparel, or showing up on athletic uniforms? All big no nos according to the department of Veteran Affairs.

[Phantom Warrior]

I found this interesting. Paul Chryst responding to a question:

The team may not be out on the field during the national anthem, but have you felt the need to address anything going on outside with the team?

“I always feel the need to talk with our players about everything that you think might be on their minds. I’ve done that for a long time and want to continue to do that. I can learn from talking to them and get a sense of where they’re at, and whether it’s what was kind of a lot’s been talked about this weekend, whether it was two weekends, three weekends ago, a number of kids we thought their families were going to be affected by weather.

“Then there’s a number of other kids that have things going on at home that’s not a national story but it’s real to them, so I think the more that we can talk to our kids and learn and help them go through all the things that they go through at this time in their life. This time, whether it’s a national thing, whether it’s a local [thing], I think you try to talk to them and learn and hear, and I’m proud.

More from that answer:

“I think that’s one of the areas, one of the things that I appreciate most about being at Wisconsin, particularly with this group of guys, is that there are thoughts and well-thought-out feelings and opinions. They challenge each other or they’ll talk it out. It’s one of the parts of my job that no one sees it but that I really appreciate.”

If that is going on at UW, I'd bet the same attitude/approach is going on at MU.

[IrwinFletcher]

I believe that the NBA has a rule about players standing for the anthem already in place. If true, will be interesting to see if that is challenged this fall. And then if challenged, what does the League do.

[MUMac]

The protests, other than the backlash to the recent Trump tweets , really have not been political. More about police harassment and police shootings relative to minority communities. Personally, I have no issue with those protests. Unfortunately, the far greater issues in those communities relate to poverty, jobs, economics and crimes. Those issues are not unique to our country. Look at Europe, India and on and on. differnet minorities, but the same issues.

Unfortunately, the protestors chose a "lightning rod" for their protests. Now, their reasons are not considered or discussed - by them or anyone else. Frankly, I think they chose the wrong thing/way to protest or to get the issues on the table. I also think the NFL blew a huge opportunity with their reaction to the President's comments. Instead of the vitriolic reaction, they could have said the players have important issues that need to be discussed and they support their wanting to have them discussed. That would have elevated their cause, but now that is background music in a highly divided country.

[MUMac]

I believe that the NBA has a rule about players standing for the anthem already in place. If true, will be interesting to see if that is challenged this fall. And then if challenged, what does the League do.

They do, as Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf FKA Chris Jackson found out when he sat for the anthem.

[Markedman]

The league is much different now......I will be shocked if they do anything now that NFL has allowed it without punishment.

NBA caters to the star players now.....Lebron, Curry...etc......Does anybody really think Adam Silver is going to do anything if those guys take a knee?

[MUFAN2010]

The league is much different now......I will be shocked if they do anything now that NFL has allowed it without punishment.

NBA caters to the star players now.....Lebron, Curry...etc......Does anybody really think Adam Silver is going to do anything if those guys take a knee?

if they do, should they?

[Phantom Warrior]

What would they do? Suspend the players? No way.

The backlash from a majority of the teams' fans would be enormous.

On top of that, I think that if an owner suspended or fined even one player, no matter who it was, the other players on the team would then kneel or whatever in support of their teammate. Then what would the owner do? Suspend the entire team? Cancel games? No way, Jose.

[MUMac]

What would they do? Suspend the players? No way.

The backlash from a majority of the teams' fans would be enormous.

On top of that, I think that if an owner suspended or fined even one player, no matter who it was, the other players on the team would then kneel or whatever in support of their teammate. Then what would the owner do? Suspend the entire team? Cancel games? No way, Jose.

It would be the league that would dole out the penalties, if any, not the team owners. Would they? I doubt it as Markedman said above. One caveat to that, though, is gauging the fallout (if any) to the NFL from the fans. Money drives both leagues and if they took action, it would likely be due to concerns about losing the fans.

Right now you see the NFL, it's teams, owners and players in crisis management mode over last weekends actions. The NBA is watching and will have the luxury of seeing how this plays out first.

[Phantom Warrior]

I'm curious. Do posters think that a substantial number of NFL fans will boycott games?

Maybe a more personal question: anyone on this board regularly attend NFL games who would now stop going because of players kneeling during the anthem? (Doesn't have to be a Packer fan - could be a fan of any team.)

[MUMac]

I'm curious. Do posters think that a substantial number of NFL fans will boycott games?

Maybe a more personal question: anyone on this board regularly attend NFL games who would now stop going because of players kneeling during the anthem? (Doesn't have to be a Packer fan - could be a fan of any team.)

It's not the attendance at games, but the apparel sales, tv viewership ... That I do believe will continue to see a dip.

I am a season ticket holder for both the Green and Gold packages for the Packers. It won't stop me from going. I, though, detest what they have done - bringing politics into sports.

[mufan2003]

Remington Research Group conducted one of the first national surveys on this topic (Sept 25 with 1,633 respondents). They accurately predicted the 2016 election. 2 of the more relevant questions related to the recent controversy:

Q6: Do you think NFL players should stand and be respectful during the national anthem?

Yes: 64%
No: 24%
Unsure: 12%

Q10: In the future, would you prefer to see more politics, less politics, or the same amount of politics during sporting events?

More politics: 7%
Less politics: 80%
Same amount: 13%

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzWr6wLBKKewRUpoZmdsXzZ0bGM/view

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Interesting. I never really gave it any thought but now I am questioning it -- why is the national anthem played before sporting events? Kind of strange when you think about it.

The Chicago Cubs started it in the 1918 World Series and it grew from there.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/09/26/how-the-national-anthem-got-tangled-up-with-american-sports-215646

Outside US sports, the only time anthems are typically played is for international competitions like Olympics or the World Cup. But here, sports and politics have often been closely linked. Jesse Owens, Tommie Smith, Muhammed Ali, the Olympic Boycott, the Miracle on Ice, the NFL delaying the season after 9-11, Pat Tillman, the military paying the NFL to have players on the field for the anthem starting in 2009 as a recruiting strategy, Kaepernick's knee, even yesterday's FBI investigation of NCAA basketball recruiting, it's very interesting just how indivisible sports and politics are in this country.

[mufan2003]

It's not the attendance at games, but the apparel sales, tv viewership ... That I do believe will continue to see a dip.

I am a season ticket holder for both the Green and Gold packages for the Packers. It won't stop me from going. I, though, detest what they have done - bringing politics into sports.

I agree. I think vulnerability to the drop in attendance will depend on the strength of the team. Packers, Patriots, Falcons fans will still watch/attend because the product on the field is too good/entertaining. Despite the fact that the majority do not like what is going on (if it continues). Browns and Bengals fans may feel differently. I think overall TV viewership could fall, with fans choosing to only watch their team, when they used to watch multiple games.

[IrwinFletcher]

The league is much different now......I will be shocked if they do anything now that NFL has allowed it without punishment.

NBA caters to the star players now.....Lebron, Curry...etc......Does anybody really think Adam Silver is going to do anything if those guys take a knee?

Not to mention Steve Kerr and Greg Popovich.

[IrwinFletcher]

I'm curious. Do posters think that a substantial number of NFL fans will boycott games?

Maybe a more personal question: anyone on this board regularly attend NFL games who would now stop going because of players kneeling during the anthem? (Doesn't have to be a Packer fan - could be a fan of any team.)

DirecTV is allowing people to cancel their NFL Packages with a refund. Never have done that before. Like it or not, some people arent happy for many reasons.

[MU/Panther]

65% to 70% of Americans are pissed with all of this, I'm willing to bet!

[MUFAN2010]

65% to 70% middle aged white dudes are pissed with all of this, I'm willing to bet!

FiFY

[farmerdoc]

It isn't just middle aged white dudes though. Polling suggests a broader level of unhappiness with the NFL and its position. It will be interesting to see where this goes.

[Goose85]

65% to 70% of Americans are pissed with all of this, I'm willing to bet!

Maybe 65% to 70% of southern white males are, but all Americans, not the polls I've seen.
Bottom line, if Trump didn't call Kappernick and others SOBs, while not showing similar disdain for the KKK, white nationalists, etc I don't think this thing blows up the way it did. I think most would prefer politics stay out of sports, but with the Pres now tweeting about this daily, football and politics are now intertwined and I don't see that changing soon. My guess is most would prefer the ramping up of the rhetoric on this topic would stop, but it is big news now.

Fans were going to boycott Philadelphia when they signed Mike Vick, but that didn't last long if it impacted Philly at all. Fans of some teams were adamant about their team not drafting Mixon, but he looked pretty good for Cincy and I'm not sure if fans have boycotted. Elliot played on Monday night, but there didn't seem to be any fan backlash about him playing.

I'm still waiting for the outrage for the news agencies photographer that was on one knee taking pictures of the players during the anthem - I actually found that picture attached to the story of the Buffalo Bills employee hilarious. I'm sure Trump will call for his firing soon.

I stand at attention for the anthem and always have. I don't, however, when I'm watching on TV, and not really sure if I should or not. Do most Americans stand at home for the anthem (like those 65% to 70% of Americans that are pissed)?
I do see folks not paying attention during the anthem, even now looking around to see what other people are doing. I have also determined that many, if not in their seats, don't feel they need to stop if they are walking / talking in the concourse before a game. I always stop and stand at attention, even if walking into the stadium. What are the flag rules on that, I'm really not sure?

[MUMac]

Maybe 65% to 70% of southern white males are, but all Americans, not the polls I've seen.
Bottom line, if Trump didn't call Kappernick and others SOBs, while not showing similar disdain for the KKK, white nationalists, etc I don't think this thing blows up the way it did. I think most would prefer politics stay out of sports, but with the Pres now tweeting about this daily, football and politics are now intertwined and I don't see that changing soon. My guess is most would prefer the ramping up of the rhetoric on this topic would stop, but it is big news now.

Fans were going to boycott Philadelphia when they signed Mike Vick, but that didn't last long if it impacted Philly at all. Fans of some teams were adamant about their team not drafting Mixon, but he looked pretty good for Cincy and I'm not sure if fans have boycotted. Elliot played on Monday night, but there didn't seem to be any fan backlash about him playing.

I'm still waiting for the outrage for the news agencies photographer that was on one knee taking pictures of the players during the anthem - I actually found that picture attached to the story of the Buffalo Bills employee hilarious. I'm sure Trump will call for his firing soon.

I stand at attention for the anthem and always have. I don't, however, when I'm watching on TV, and not really sure if I should or not. Do most Americans stand at home for the anthem (like those 65% to 70% of Americans that are pissed)?
I do see folks not paying attention during the anthem, even now looking around to see what other people are doing. I have also determined that many, if not in their seats, don't feel they need to stop if they are walking / talking in the concourse before a game. I always stop and stand at attention, even if walking into the stadium. What are the flag rules on that, I'm really not sure?

Come on, now. That's just absurd. The photographer was working, not protesting. There is a difference and if you are too blind to see that, then ...

[MU/Panther]

I guess some on here have there left-wing racist statements shitting on white people. What the f---- are you!

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

I guess some on here have there left-wing racist statements shitting on white people. What the f---- are you!

I'm confused how supporting equal treatment for black people equates to "shitting on white people." I support equality for all citizens, as guaranteed by the Constitution. I also support the right to peaceful protest, as guaranteed by the Constitution and upheld regarding protests that call for Congressional action in US v Cruikshank in 1875.

People don't realize that this isn't a right wing or left wing issue, it is a Constitutional issue. Supporting the Constitution means supporting the freedoms it grants. Supporting the freedoms it grants means supporting equality for all citizens. And supporting equality for all citizens, in my estimation, is exactly what this country is supposed to be all about.

It's not right vs left, it's freedom vs forced action.

[MU/Panther]

Where is the treatment for black people not there? Stats don't back that up. Where is the outraged for the black on black crime. That's right, those folks don't want to hear the folks like Sir Charles and others say those things.

[Goose85]

Come on, now. That's just absurd. The photographer was working, not protesting. There is a difference and if you are too blind to see that, then ...

I guess I didn't realize if you are working and not protesting you don't have to pay attention to the anthem / flag. When I'm at games and not yet at my seat no matter where I am, I do stop and stand at attention during the anthem, and I have noticed that the people working concessions generally stop working and don't service customers during the anthem. Can't say that's always the case because I'm normally at my seat, but that is what I've observed at many stadiums (not just Milwaukee). Once the anthem is finished, they go back to work.

With all of this uproar about disrespect I thought all were expected to pause what they are doing during the anthem. I didn't realize that if you are working, then not paying attention to the anthem was ok as long as you aren't doing it in protest.

So what is stadium protocol during the anthem. Do you stop working, should you stop walking if you are in the concourse, should you stop anywhere if you can hear the anthem? Seriously, what do people think is ok or offensive? I think if you are in the building you should stop and remove your cap, if you are working you should stop for a minute then continue afterward.

[Goose85]

I guess some on here have there left-wing racist statements shitting on white people. What the f---- are you!

I am asking about the national anthem protocol, and why some are making such a big deal about it, yet don't always pay attention themselves while at games. I don't think that has anything to do with left or right wing, white or black.
Are all supposed to stand at attention or not? Are people supposed to stop working or not? If you are walking in the concourse at the stadium are you excluded from paying attention during the anthem? Do people have to do anything at all during the anthem? Are you supposed to stand when watching a game at home or not?

[MUMac]

I guess I didn't realize if you are working and not protesting you don't have to pay attention to the anthem / flag. When I'm at games and not yet at my seat no matter where I am, I do stop and stand at attention during the anthem, and I have noticed that the people working concessions generally stop working and don't service customers during the anthem. Can't say that's always the case because I'm normally at my seat, but that is what I've observed at many stadiums (not just Milwaukee). Once the anthem is finished, they go back to work.

With all of this uproar about disrespect I thought all were expected to pause what they are doing during the anthem. I didn't realize that if you are working, then not paying attention to the anthem was ok as long as you aren't doing it in protest.

So what is stadium protocol during the anthem. Do you stop working, should you stop walking if you are in the concourse, should you stop anywhere if you can hear the anthem? Seriously, what do people think is ok or offensive? I think if you are in the building you should stop and remove your cap, if you are working you should stop for a minute then continue afterward.

Come on Goose, really? The ones on their knees taking pictures are doing it for their job. Give me a break. Really on obtuse and idiotic statement and you continue to double down. Whatever. Have at your faux indignation. :rolleyes:

[Goose85]

Come on Goose, really? The ones on their knees taking pictures are doing it for their job. Give me a break. Really on obtuse and idiotic statement and you continue to double down. Whatever. Have at your faux indignation. :rolleyes:

I'm not doubling down, I'm asking a question. I understand you point on the worker, fine.

Mac, I'm genuinely interested in your and others opinions on this as to what the protocol is for fans who are in the concourse or concession area. I always stop during the anthem, but it has always bothered me that people don't stop even though all can hear the national anthem being played. I guess many think it only counts if you are actually in the stands. Not trying to be idiotic, just seeing what others think the protocol is here.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Where is the treatment for black people not there? Stats don't back that up.

Stats absolutely back that up. Blacks have never been treated equally. Years of Jim Crow laws created an established norm. Red-lining trashed black property values while inflating white property values, creating an inherent disadvantage. Segregated schools created a clear divide in the quality of education. While the laws have been repealed, nothing has been done to actually make changes. You can't just say "red-lining is illegal, now everyone is equal" if the conditions created over generations won't change the property values. Schools are more segregated today than they were in the 1970s. Just because blacks are legally allowed to move doesn't mean they can. They are at a wage disadvantage, an education disadvantage, and a property disadvantage. Pretty hard to sell your home and move to the suburbs when your home is worth $10,000 and the homes in the suburbs start at 20x that value.

If you need sources...

Red-lining and how FHA policies disenfranchised blacks from 1934-1968: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/the-racist-housing-policy-that-made-your-neighborhood/371439/

Levittown is a good example of this. It was illegal for blacks to live there when founded, and 50 years later it still was virtually all white: http://www.nytimes.com/1997/12/28/nyregion/at-50-levittown-contends-with-its-legacy-of-bias.html?mcubz=1

Segregation today is worse than it was in the 1970s: https://www.propublica.org/article/segregation-now-full-text

Housing discrimination continue


Where is the outraged for the black on black crime. That's right, those folks don't want to hear the folks like Sir Charles and others say those things.

You're trying to move the goalposts. There is a ton of outrage for black-on-black crime, moreso than for white-on-white crime, but that's not the issue at hand. First of all, yes, 90% of black homicides are black-on-black (2245 out of 2491 in 2013). But 83.5% of white homicides are white-on-white (2509 out of 3005). The simple reality is people are murdered by people they know, in their neighborhood.

That comes from this FBI report: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex _of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls

The issue here is not black-on-black crime, it's racial injustice and police abuses of power. Racial injustice is real. Police abuses of power are real. These are real problems that need to be corrected in our society. Black-on-black crime is also a problem, but that does not lessen the blatant reality of other problems. Just because you have two or more problems doesn't justify sticking your head in the sand because the one you like to talk about hasn't been fixed yet.

[MU/Panther]

It's not a case of moving the goalpost, talking about issue on hand. More overstatements that you are listing. Fake News!! Nobody is saying it's not real, there is many cases which things were just false. Baltimore, Ferguson, heck Milwaukee! I'm moving on. Later!

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

It's not a case of moving the goalpost, talking about issue on hand. More overstatements that you are listing. Fake News!! Nobody is saying it's not real, there is many cases which things were just false. Baltimore, Ferguson, heck Milwaukee! I'm moving on. Later!

Do you believe in freedom and the Constitution? Do you believe those things should be extended to all citizens? If the answer is yes, it's virtually impossible to argue against this protest.

[MU/Panther]

That's for government. Plus, that "freedom and the Constitution" does not apply by the power to everyone as you want it too. See many University's speakers as an example to that.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

That's for government. Plus, that "freedom and the Constitution" does not apply by the power to everyone as you want it too. See many University's speaker as an example as that.

So if your employer hired a new boss who happened to be Muslim, and he told you that every day you had to pray facing Mecca with him to Allah, you'd be cool with that? I mean, it's all the First Amendment. If their boss can abridge a player's right to protest, your boss can abridge your freedom of religion.

Rights are rights. The government pays the NFL to put players on the sideline during the anthem. They have done so as a recruiting tool since 2009. So if government payments are forcing them to be there, they have the right to protest.

[MU/Panther]

Government doesn't pay the players. You lost me.

Anyways, you made your point. You are cool with players taking a knee. Fine.

[mufan2003]

Maybe 65% to 70% of southern white males are, but all Americans, not the polls I've seen.
Bottom line, if Trump didn't call Kappernick and others SOBs, while not showing similar disdain for the KKK, white nationalists, etc I don't think this thing blows up the way it did. I think most would prefer politics stay out of sports, but with the Pres now tweeting about this daily, football and politics are now intertwined and I don't see that changing soon. My guess is most would prefer the ramping up of the rhetoric on this topic would stop, but it is big news now.


See page 10 of the Remington Research Group survey:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzWr6wLBKKewRUpoZmdsXzZ0bGM/view


Do you think NFL players should stand and be respectful during the national anthem?

Female: Yes-61%, No-24%, Unsure-15%
Male: Yes-68%, No-24%, Unsure-8%

White: Yes-67%, No-23%, Unsure-10%
African-American: Yes-48%, No-33%, Unsure-20%
Hispanic: Yes-70%, No-22%, Unsure-8%
Other: Yes-62%, No-23%, Unsure-15%

18-29: Yes-70%, No-21%, Unsure-9%
30-39: Yes-70%, No-18%, Unsure-12%
40-49: Yes-59%, No-29%, Unsure-12%
50-69: Yes-61%, No-27%, Unsure-12%
70+: Yes-67%, No-21%, Unsure-12%

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Government doesn't pay the players. You lost me.

Anyways, you made your point. You are cool with players taking a knee. Fine.

The Department of Defense and National Guard has paid teams to have the players on the field as a recruiting tool.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/us-defense-department-paid-14-nfl-teams-54m-to-honor-soldiers/amp/

And is it safe to say that since you refused to answer, you are not okay with forced abridgement of First Amendment protections in the workplace like freedom of religion?

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

See page 10 of the Remington Research Group survey:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzWr6wLBKKewRUpoZmdsXzZ0bGM/view


Do you think NFL players should stand and be respectful during the national anthem?

Female: Yes-61%, No-24%, Unsure-15%
Male: Yes-68%, No-24%, Unsure-8%

White: Yes-67%, No-23%, Unsure-10%
African-American: Yes-48%, No-33%, Unsure-20%
Hispanic: Yes-70%, No-22%, Unsure-8%
Other: Yes-62%, No-23%, Unsure-15%

18-29: Yes-70%, No-21%, Unsure-9%
30-39: Yes-70%, No-18%, Unsure-12%
40-49: Yes-59%, No-29%, Unsure-12%
50-69: Yes-61%, No-27%, Unsure-12%
70+: Yes-67%, No-21%, Unsure-12%


That's inherently confusing. It implies taking a knee is disrespectful, which it is not. Standing is fine. Kneeling is fine. That poll is designed to get a specific answer by tying standing to respect.

[MU/Panther]

Unreal you don't think it's disrespectful.

[MU88]

The issue here is not black-on-black crime, it's racial injustice and police abuses of power. Racial injustice is real. Police abuses of power are real. These are real problems that need to be corrected in our society. Black-on-black crime is also a problem, but that does not lessen the blatant reality of other problems. Just because you have two or more problems doesn't justify sticking your head in the sand because the one you like to talk about hasn't been fixed yet.

In 2016:

Native Americans were twice as likely to be killed by police as Blacks.

Whites were twice as likely to be killed by police as Asian-Americans.

If this was simply about racial injustice against Blacks, the first statement would not be true. If this was simply about racial injustice to those not White, the second statement would not be true.

Look, everyone, and I mean everyone, is racist to one degree or another. We all are suspicious of things that are different. But, I am not so sure that race alone is the driving force behind the alleged abuses of police power or even a major factor. If this was entirely race driven, you would expect cities with similar racial makeups to be similar numbers of police shootings. But, you don't. Columbus and Oakland have the exact same percentage of Black residents, but a Black person is 3 times more likely to be killed by police in Oakland than Columbus. A Black is way more likely to get shot in Nashville than Raleigh. Why? Are Nashville and Oakland cops more racist than Columbus and Raleigh? Nor is crime the reason for blacks being shot. Buffalo has more violent crime and a slightly higher percentage of Black residents, but had no Police killings between 2012 and 2015, while Orlando, a city of the same size, less violent crime and slightly less Black residents, had 15 killings by Police.

Further, these stats leave out a couple of very important bits of information. First, how many Black cops kill Black criminals? Clearly, if Black cops are killing Blacks at a much higher rate than white cops do (and there is some research that suggests this is true), the suggestion that the higher rate of killing Blacks is a result of racism somewhat falls apart. In fact, if true, you may argue the opposite, that non-Black cops may be overly reluctant to shoot Black criminals. In addition, it would be interesting to know how many cops are killed by Black criminals versus non-black criminals. If Blacks kill cops at a much higher rate than other criminals, it would suggest a motive (not an excuse) for why more Blacks appear to be targeted by the police. Unfortunately, these types of stats don't exist or are unreliable.

My sole point is that instead of screaming that the police are racist who abuse power, we as a society need to come together and figure out the precise reasons why these shootings are occurring. Some may be attributable to race. But, are economic factors playing a role? Do different factors such as the type of police training, the makeup of the police force, or the demographics, such as age, play a factor? Are they the major factors? Only when we understand the full extent of the problem can the problem be fixed.

Finally, in 2016 it has been reported that 266 Blacks died in police shootings or roughly .00066% of the Black population in the US. So, you have a much, much better chance (about 10 times better) of being struck by lightening in your lifetime than a Black American has of being killed by the Police. I am not saying this issue isn't a problem, it is. Every life is precious. But, more Black Americans died in shootings in Chicago in the first half of 2017. We need to put this problem into context.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Unreal you don't think it's disrespectful.

Not as unreal as your belief that exercising the rights our military & protective services are sworn to defend is disrespectful. I swore an oath to uphold the Constitution and I'm honored when people exercise the rights I'm sworn to protect, even when I disagree.

Also, you are wildly wrong about one thing. I don't think anyone should kneel, because we should live in a country where everyone feels fairly treated so they don't need to.

[mufan2003]

That's inherently confusing. It implies taking a knee is disrespectful, which it is not. Standing is fine. Kneeling is fine. That poll is designed to get a specific answer by tying standing to respect.

No it isn't. You think kneeling is just fine for the national anthem. You are certainly entitled to have that opinion, but it isn't confusing. IIRC, at most sporting events, an individual comes on over the PA and says "at this time we'd ask that you please remove your caps and stand for our national anthem." Kneeling is a direct rejection in honoring that request.

[MU/Panther]

"Not as unreal as your belief that exercising the rights our military & protective services are sworn to defend is disrespectful"

Not sure where I said that. :confused:

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

MU88 -- There's definitely more to it. Do some cities have better training? Better background checks to determine mental fitness for the job? Better educated citizens who are proactive in compliance with police? More minorities involved in the management side of the hiring process? There's always more to it, but anyone that thinks blacks are treated equally in our society is at best grossly delusional. Jim Crow laws tilted the balance against blacks and repealing laws does not undo generations of injustice.

It's a deeply complex and at the moment, seemingly insurmountable issue. But at least we're starting to talk about it, which is a huge step in the right direction.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

No it isn't. You think kneeling is just fine for the national anthem.

The question is worded to slant the responder to the idea that the players are being disrespectful. That's inherently confusing.

And I suggest you reread my posts if you think I'm "just fine" with kneeling. I would prefer everyone stand, but I abhor the notion that everyone be forced to stand. That is just anti-American to the core.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

"Not as unreal as your belief that exercising the rights our military & protective services are sworn to defend is disrespectful"

Not sure where I said that. :confused:

Our military fought for the right to peaceful protest. You call peaceful protest disrespectful.

[mufan2003]

The question is worded to slant the responder to the idea that the players are being disrespectful. That's inherently confusing.

And I suggest you reread my posts if you think I'm "just fine" with kneeling. I would prefer everyone stand, but I abhor the notion that everyone be forced to stand. That is just anti-American to the core.

People are simply expressing their opinions that the national anthem/honoring of the flag is the wrong place/time to protest. Plenty of opportunity to protest and make tangible progress outside the playing of the national anthem. The national anthem and the flag encompass the positives of America that outweigh the negative and the men/women that gave their life to preserve it. It is why so many people around the world want to come to the USA.

[Gato78]

My take: both sides are right.

[TheSultan]

People are simply expressing their opinions that the national anthem/honoring of the flag is the wrong place/time to protest. Plenty of opportunity to protest and make tangible progress outside the playing of the national anthem. The national anthem and the flag encompass the positives of America that outweigh the negative and the men/women that gave their life to preserve it. It is why so many people around the world want to come to the USA.

Protesting only when and where someone else declares it appropriate isn't really an effective protest.

[MUAlphaBangura]

I'm not doubling down, I'm asking a question. I understand you point on the worker, fine.

Mac, I'm genuinely interested in your and others opinions on this as to what the protocol is for fans who are in the concourse or concession area. I always stop during the anthem, but it has always bothered me that people don't stop even though all can hear the national anthem being played. I guess many think it only counts if you are actually in the stands. Not trying to be idiotic, just seeing what others think the protocol is here.

If the tv cameramen stopped working during the national anthem, we wouldn't be seeing any of this. Hey, maybe everybody should stop working regardless of their job. It would put a stop to all this nonsense from what happens on the field to what happens on these message boards. :cool:

[mufan2003]

In 2016:

Native Americans were twice as likely to be killed by police as Blacks.

Whites were twice as likely to be killed by police as Asian-Americans.

If this was simply about racial injustice against Blacks, the first statement would not be true. If this was simply about racial injustice to those not White, the second statement would not be true.

Look, everyone, and I mean everyone, is racist to one degree or another. We all are suspicious of things that are different. But, I am not so sure that race alone is the driving force behind the alleged abuses of police power or even a major factor. If this was entirely race driven, you would expect cities with similar racial makeups to be similar numbers of police shootings. But, you don't. Columbus and Oakland have the exact same percentage of Black residents, but a Black person is 3 times more likely to be killed by police in Oakland than Columbus. A Black is way more likely to get shot in Nashville than Raleigh. Why? Are Nashville and Oakland cops more racist than Columbus and Raleigh? Nor is crime the reason for blacks being shot. Buffalo has more violent crime and a slightly higher percentage of Black residents, but had no Police killings between 2012 and 2015, while Orlando, a city of the same size, less violent crime and slightly less Black residents, had 15 killings by Police.

Further, these stats leave out a couple of very important bits of information. First, how many Black cops kill Black criminals? Clearly, if Black cops are killing Blacks at a much higher rate than white cops do (and there is some research that suggests this is true), the suggestion that the higher rate of killing Blacks is a result of racism somewhat falls apart. In fact, if true, you may argue the opposite, that non-Black cops may be overly reluctant to shoot Black criminals. In addition, it would be interesting to know how many cops are killed by Black criminals versus non-black criminals. If Blacks kill cops at a much higher rate than other criminals, it would suggest a motive (not an excuse) for why more Blacks appear to be targeted by the police. Unfortunately, these types of stats don't exist or are unreliable.

My sole point is that instead of screaming that the police are racist who abuse power, we as a society need to come together and figure out the precise reasons why these shootings are occurring. Some may be attributable to race. But, are economic factors playing a role? Do different factors such as the type of police training, the makeup of the police force, or the demographics, such as age, play a factor? Are they the major factors? Only when we understand the full extent of the problem can the problem be fixed.

Finally, in 2016 it has been reported that 266 Blacks died in police shootings or roughly .00066% of the Black population in the US. So, you have a much, much better chance (about 10 times better) of being struck by lightening in your lifetime than a Black American has of being killed by the Police. I am not saying this issue isn't a problem, it is. Every life is precious. But, more Black Americans died in shootings in Chicago in the first half of 2017. We need to put this problem into context.

Compare that to 13,000 late-term abortions in 2016, just in the USA alone, innocent children in the womb that didn't commit a crime or charge a police officer:

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/302232-nearly-13000-late-term-abortions-happen-every-year-a

[TheSultan]

Compare that to 13,000 late-term abortions in 2016, just in the USA alone, innocent children in the womb that didn't commit a crime or charge a police officer:

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/302232-nearly-13000-late-term-abortions-happen-every-year-a


Good lord. Just stop.

[mufansince72]

That was a complete failure, at least from the point of the players. The Packers and Aaron Rodgers basically pleaded all week for the fans to lock arms in unity to support the players. What happened? Fans booed. About 10 fans locked arms. Fans were shouting "USA, USA, USA." JS Online poll basically is at 72% of fans don't support the players, 28% do. I don't think it is people don't support the cause, but they don't support the players right to protest or demonstrate on the field. If fans want to be lectured and told they are part of the problem, they can get that at home for free from Rachel Maddow. Hopefully this weekend puts an end to this nonsense.

[TheSultan]

That was a complete failure, at least from the point of the players. The Packers and Aaron Rodgers basically pleaded all week for the fans to lock arms in unity to support the players. What happened? Fans booed. About 10 fans locked arms. Fans were shouting "USA, USA, USA." JS Online poll basically is at 72% of fans don't support the players, 28% do. I don't think it is people don't support the cause, but they don't support the players right to protest or demonstrate on the field. If fans want to be lectured and told they are part of the problem, they can get that at home for free from Rachel Maddow. Hopefully this weekend puts an end to this nonsense.


Wow. That's sad.

You called it a "right." I support anybody's right to do anything. I support the player's "right" to kneel. I support the fan's "right" to boo.

I hope it continues because it shows how hypocritical our society can be. "Yeah we support freedom, but please don't make us feel bad or uncomfortable when you exercise that freedom."

[TheSultan]

Compare that to 13,000 late-term abortions in 2016, just in the USA alone, innocent children in the womb that didn't commit a crime or charge a police officer:

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/302232-nearly-13000-late-term-abortions-happen-every-year-a


I will also point out now in this topic that you not only have told people HOW they should protest, but WHAT they should be protesting about.

How very nice of you.

[mufansince72]

Wow. That's sad.

You called it a "right." I support anybody's right to do anything. I support the player's "right" to kneel. I support the fan's "right" to boo.

I hope it continues because it shows how hypocritical our society can be. "Yeah we support freedom, but please don't make us feel bad or uncomfortable when you exercise that freedom."

The league never has until this latest stuff either. You got fined for expressing any personal or political statement.

[MU/Panther]

Our military fought for the right to peaceful protest. You call peaceful protest disrespectful.
I'm fine with peaceful protest. The style they are doing it is disrespectful.

[TheSultan]

I'm fine with peaceful protest. The style they are doing it is disrespectful.


In your opinion. In my opinion it is fine, in fact I think it is really what America is about and what it stands for.

[farmerdoc]

A couple of thoughts.
Really though, many folks see this as a workplace issue. Most cannot protest in their work place.

Kneeling is a better option than those who have chosen to sit on the bench.

Ultimately, it is up to the owners to strike a balance between their customers (the fans) and their employees (the players). Trump, IMO gave it more attention than it is really worth, although, did he do everyone a favor by forcing the conversation to a higher level?

[Nukem2]

I'm fine with peaceful protest. The style they are doing it is disrespectful.What "style" would you prefer?

[MU/Panther]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwVc7jsvdxE
What "style" would you prefer? Not during the Star-Spangled Banner that's for sure. Give some of their paycheck to re-build these area's. Go to the schools. Talk about staying out of gang life. Talk about the getting your education and not doing drugs. Not making babies out of wedlock.

[MU/Panther]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L7kLKrhJoU

[Nukem2]

Not during the Star-Spangled Banner that's for sure. Give some of their paycheck to re-build these area's. Go to the schools. Talk about staying out of gang life. Talk about the getting your education and not doing drugs. Not making babies out of wedlock.That's not peaceful protest, rather proactive involvement (which is fine and should happen anyway). The question was what style of peaceful protest.....?

[The Reptile]

Where were the protests by these guys during the off-season? They’ve had 9 months from the time the last regular season ended and this one began. Yet, none of these so-called protestors used the offseason to say anything or do anything. So, why now? It comes off as a bunch of millionaire millennials looking for attention.

Time to grow up. The NFL was where men played the game. Not seeing many men taking the field these days. If I wanted to watch boys play football I’ll start tuning in on Saturdays. I will say that the kids taking the field on Fridays show more class and maturity than the ‘professionals’ in the NFL.

[TheSultan]

Where were the protests by these guys during the off-season? They’ve had 9 months from the time the last regular season ended and this one began. Yet, none of these so-called protestors used the offseason to say anything or do anything. So, why now? It comes off as a bunch of millionaire millennials looking for attention.

Time to grow up. The NFL was where men played the game. Not seeing many men taking the field these days. If I wanted to watch boys play football I’ll start tuning in on Saturdays. I will say that the kids taking the field on Fridays show more class and maturity than the ‘professionals’ in the NFL.


So by your definition: "Men are people who entertain me without bothering me with their opinions." To me, men are people who stand up for what they believe in regardless of the consequences.

And people really have to stop with the "do something important" narrative. Many of these guys do a ton of work in their communities, a lot of which is done without publicity.

[TheSultan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwVc7jsvdxE Not during the Star-Spangled Banner that's for sure. Give some of their paycheck to re-build these area's. Go to the schools. Talk about staying out of gang life. Talk about the getting your education and not doing drugs. Not making babies out of wedlock.


First, many of them do that.

Second, stop telling people what they SHOULD believe is important.

And finally, I am getting a little bit annoyed by the multitude of videos and stories I see that reference a black person saying they stand and so should the players. No one person speaks for a race.

[MUfan12]

Where is the treatment for black people not there? Stats don't back that up. Where is the outraged for the black on black crime. That's right, those folks don't want to hear the folks like Sir Charles and others say those things.

That you, Sheriff Clarke?

[MU/Panther]

That you, Sheriff Clarke?

I wish. :p

[The Reptile]

So by your definition: "Men are people who entertain me without bothering me with their opinions." To me, men are people who stand up for what they believe in regardless of the consequences.

And people really have to stop with the "do something important" narrative. Many of these guys do a ton of work in their communities, a lot of which is done without publicity.

No, my definition is that men don’t pose when in front of the camera and disappear when the season is over. If they truly felt that strongly about the issue they would have done something in the offseason. Instead they were MIA. That tells me that this is all for show and that your belief in them is stronger than their belief in ‘The Cause’.

[TheSultan]

No, my definition is that men don’t pose when in front of the camera and disappear when the season is over. If they truly felt that strongly about the issue they would have done something in the offseason. Instead they were MIA. That tells me that this is all for show and that your belief in them is stronger than their belief in ‘The Cause’.


Who was MIA? That's what I don't get. Many of these guys are doing quite a bit if you would simply bother to look. For example...

Kaepernick.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/08/colin-kaepernick-nfl-national-anthem-protest-one-million-dollar-pledge-donations-empower-communities

Bennett.

http://www.king5.com/entertainment/television/programs/evening/seahawks-michael-bennett-takes-a-stand-on-and-off-the-field/471806485

[MUAlphaBangura]

Who was MIA? That's what I don't get. Many of these guys are doing quite a bit if you would simply bother to look. For example...

Kaepernick.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/08/colin-kaepernick-nfl-national-anthem-protest-one-million-dollar-pledge-donations-empower-communities

Bennett.

http://www.king5.com/entertainment/television/programs/evening/seahawks-michael-bennett-takes-a-stand-on-and-off-the-field/471806485

If by many, you mean a handful out of all of those who took a knee or sat, I would agree with you. Doubt there is really any easy way to quantify the actual numbers of those that are actually backing up their protests by trying to make a difference in their communities, but I would guess it's way less than half. I'd like to be wrong.

[TheSultan]

If by many, you mean a handful out of all of those who took a knee or sat, I would agree with you. Doubt there is really any easy way to quantify the actual numbers of those that are actually backing up their protests by trying to make a difference in their communities, but I would guess it's way less than half. I'd like to be wrong.


In my very first English composition course as a MU freshman, somewhere deep in the bowels of the Schroeder Complex, a wise instructor once taught me "you can't used 'most' without a survey."

You might be right. I don't know.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

I'm fine with peaceful protest. The style they are doing it is disrespectful.

Kaepernick initially sat on the bench. After speaking with a Army veteran and Green Beret, he began to kneel to show genuflection to the flag and men who served while still showing his protest against the injustices he sees in society. So the style is done specifically to show respect while still protesting.

And having sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution, I can't think of anything that shows more respect for that oath than to exercise the rights my oath was made to protect.

[The Reptile]

Who was MIA? That's what I don't get. Many of these guys are doing quite a bit if you would simply bother to look. For example...

Kaepernick.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/08/colin-kaepernick-nfl-national-anthem-protest-one-million-dollar-pledge-donations-empower-communities

Bennett.

http://www.king5.com/entertainment/television/programs/evening/seahawks-michael-bennett-takes-a-stand-on-and-off-the-field/471806485

Ok. That’s one current NFL player. Where are the rest of the aggrieved? There were a lot more than one protesting.

And when you say these guys have done ‘a lot’ what constitutes ‘a lot’. Tweets are meaningless. Where is the real actions these guys have done. How much money have they raised? How many times were they arrested for ‘The Cause’? How many protests did they organize? How many public speeches did they give? How many interviews?

The folks you are defending have light resumes and appear to me like posers.

[TheSultan]

Ok. That’s one current NFL player. Where are the rest of the aggrieved? There were a lot more than one protesting.

And when you say these guys have done ‘a lot’ what constitutes ‘a lot’. Tweets are meaningless. Where is the real actions these guys have done. How much money have they raised? How many times were they arrested for ‘The Cause’? How many protests did they organize? How many public speeches did they give? How many interviews?

The folks you are defending have light resumes and appear to me like posers.


As I said many of them do a lot "if you simply bother to look." Apparently you haven't and you won't. That's as weak as you are accusing these guys of being.

[MUAlphaBangura]

After seeing the police video of Michael Bennett in Las Vegas, I don't care what he's doing in his community. He is an absolute p.o.s. Runs from the scene. Whines and cries like a little bitch. Lies about everything. Racially profiled by two Hispanic and one African-American officer? Right. He's making everyone that is legitimately trying to create a better environment have to work much harder to do so.

[The Reptile]

As I said many of them do a lot "if you simply bother to look." Apparently you haven't and you won't. That's as weak as you are accusing these guys of being.

I read the news. Clearly, if they were that active it would be newsworthy. Clearly, it’s not even in today’s political climate and 24 hour news cycles. Sorry, that I’m seeking this information our up to your standards I truly have better things to do.

[TheSultan]

I read the news. Clearly, if they were that active it would be newsworthy. Clearly, it’s not even in today’s political climate and 24 hour news cycles. Sorry, that I’m seeking this information our up to your standards I truly have better things to do.

So you have time to make accusations but not time to make sure they are accurate?

Even weaker.

[TheSultan]

After seeing the police video of Michael Bennett in Las Vegas, I don't care what he's doing in his community. He is an absolute p.o.s. Runs from the scene. Whines and cries like a little bitch. Lies about everything. Racially profiled by two Hispanic and one African-American officer? Right. He's making everyone that is legitimately trying to create a better environment have to work much harder to do so.


Not saying you are wrong by any means, but the race of the officers are irrelevant when it comes to racial profiling.

[The Reptile]

So you have time to make accusations but not time to make sure they are accurate?

Even weaker.

Weak is when someone changes the conversation because his proof isn’t good enough. Burden of proof isn’t on me it’s on you. I read and watched the news all off season and didn’t see any examples of what you claim. You gave two links and only one for an active player. If reality supports your claim you’d have more links of NFL players active in ‘The Cause’ during the last 9 months. Clearly, it doesn’t.

[TheSultan]

Weak is when someone changes the conversation because his proof isn’t good enough. Burden of proof isn’t on me it’s on you.

You were the one who made the initial assertion they don't do anything. I didn't change the conversation one bit. I showed players that do something, and you responded with "I read the news." :rolleyes:

Look, just face it, you are just repeating lines you have heard elsewhere.

[2012Warrior]

Martellus Bennett is very involved off the field.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/martellus-bennett-releases-plan-for-houston-based-martyland-adventure-park/

Haha Clinton-Dix interned with a local law enforcement agency. I think there's a lot of player stuff doing great things. They may not all have the self-promotion of JJ Watt, but they are out there.

[The Reptile]

You were the one who made the initial assertion they don't do anything. I didn't change the conversation one bit. I showed players that do something, and you responded with "I read the news." :rolleyes:

Look, just face it, you are just repeating lines you have heard elsewhere.

No, your assertion was many of these guys are doing tons of stuff in their communities and had only one example which may constitute tons in your mind but a rational person requires more proof. The truth is these guys are not living the cause.

My assertion was they did nothing in the offseason - no protests, no arrests for protesting, no community organizing, no editorials, no appearance on the Sunday talk shows. They did their off season workouts and got ready for the season - which is fine since it’s their jobs. But to come out again this season and protest after a 9 month hiatus is disingenuous.

So, feel free to continue to dodge the fact that you have no proof and you can’t walk the talk and I’ll wait for your next post void of any evidence, full of cute one liners designed to deflect attention away from your impotence and claims that I’m just not getting it.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Weak is when someone changes the conversation because his proof isn’t good enough. Burden of proof isn’t on me it’s on you. I read and watched the news all off season and didn’t see any examples of what you claim. You gave two links and only one for an active player. If reality supports your claim you’d have more links of NFL players active in ‘The Cause’ during the last 9 months. Clearly, it doesn’t.

Being active in the community isn't something that is usually on the news. People don't want that stuff on their news. Sure, they all say they want to see good news reported, but it's a lie. People turn in for the bad news. That's why that stuff leads the newscast, that's why major crime and disaster stories lead the news for days and weeks on end. Because if it's all good news, people don't bother to tune in. Anyway, here's a few local stories from the off-season:

Dontari Poe, Atlanta Falcons (http://www.poemansdream.org/) Poe has his own foundation that does outreach in his hometown of Memphis as well as places he's played football: Atlanta, KC, and San Francisco.
Lorenzo Alexander, Buffalo Bills (https://sportsspectrum.com/sport/football/2017/08/29/buffalo-bills-lorenzo-alexander-helps-57-kids-get-school-supplies/) Alexander took 57 Buffalo area kids shopping for school supplies.
Christian Kirksey, Cleveland Browns (http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/videos/Kirksey-gives-back-with-Youth-Football-Camp/ca8b8722-b44a-467c-8236-e627b69d88e4) Kirksey works with a football camp in his hometown.
Virgil Green, Denver Broncos (http://www.unitedwaydenver.org/news/virgil-green-powerful-role-model) Green works with the United Way to get out in the community working with local schools and children
Malcolm Jenkins & Torrey Smith, Philadelphia Eagles (https://herosports.com/nfl/list-of-players-protest-national-anthem-a7a7) They've worked with former NFL player Anquan Boldin and led trips to meet with Congress, the Philadelphia mayor, and raised money for youth football organizations in Texas, among other things.

So that's about 15-20 minutes of me looking around. I'm not going to do research all day for you, but this is the tip of the iceberg. There are stories from players on every NFL team if you take the time to find them. These guys are out in their communities, are working with children, the police, and politicians, are donating money to help with hurricane cleanup, they are doing a lot.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

If your rational mind requires more proof, go look for it. It's out there. Just because this stuff doesn't make it to the evening news doesn't mean it isn't happening.

[TheSultan]

LOL. Thanks Brew. As I said Reptile, all you have to do is look. Not hard.

So you can continue to be ignorant and bathe in your Fox News talking points, or you can open your eyes and see that many players are indeed "living the cause." Your choice.

[MUAlphaBangura]

Being active in the community isn't something that is usually on the news. People don't want that stuff on their news. Sure, they all say they want to see good news reported, but it's a lie. People turn in for the bad news. That's why that stuff leads the newscast, that's why major crime and disaster stories lead the news for days and weeks on end. Because if it's all good news, people don't bother to tune in. Anyway, here's a few local stories from the off-season:

Dontari Poe, Atlanta Falcons (http://www.poemansdream.org/) Poe has his own foundation that does outreach in his hometown of Memphis as well as places he's played football: Atlanta, KC, and San Francisco.
Lorenzo Alexander, Buffalo Bills (https://sportsspectrum.com/sport/football/2017/08/29/buffalo-bills-lorenzo-alexander-helps-57-kids-get-school-supplies/) Alexander took 57 Buffalo area kids shopping for school supplies.
Christian Kirksey, Cleveland Browns (http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/videos/Kirksey-gives-back-with-Youth-Football-Camp/ca8b8722-b44a-467c-8236-e627b69d88e4) Kirksey works with a football camp in his hometown.
Virgil Green, Denver Broncos (http://www.unitedwaydenver.org/news/virgil-green-powerful-role-model) Green works with the United Way to get out in the community working with local schools and children
Malcolm Jenkins & Torrey Smith, Philadelphia Eagles (https://herosports.com/nfl/list-of-players-protest-national-anthem-a7a7) They've worked with former NFL player Anquan Boldin and led trips to meet with Congress, the Philadelphia mayor, and raised money for youth football organizations in Texas, among other things.

So that's about 15-20 minutes of me looking around. I'm not going to do research all day for you, but this is the tip of the iceberg. There are stories from players on every NFL team if you take the time to find them. These guys are out in their communities, are working with children, the police, and politicians, are donating money to help with hurricane cleanup, they are doing a lot.

Thanks for that research. I don't doubt there are some really quality human beings in the NFL that are really trying to make a difference. My question would be: Were any of these guys taking a knee? Again, almost impossible to research that. Don't think anyone could deny that many of the kneelers aren't doing anything to advance the cause outside of their demonstration in front of a camera.

[Nukem2]

LOL. Thanks Brew. As I said Reptile, all you have to do is look. Not hard.

So you can continue to be ignorant and bathe in your Fox News talking points, or you can open your eyes and see that many players are indeed "living the cause." Your choice.
I suspect truth is somewhere in between all of this. Your position fails you with your talking points comment. You are not walking the high ground. Life is not all that simple.

[TheSultan]

I suspect truth is somewhere in between all of this.

Which I acknowledged up above.




Your position fails you with your talking points comment. You are not walking the high ground.

Oh well...

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Thanks for that research. I don't doubt there are some really quality human beings in the NFL that are really trying to make a difference. My question would be: Were any of these guys taking a knee? Again, almost impossible to research that. Don't think anyone could deny that many of the kneelers aren't doing anything to advance the cause outside of their demonstration in front of a camera.

Every one of those guys is taking the knee. I used them specifically as examples of that. But I'm not going to spend my day looking up all 200 guys that (Edit) herosports.com listed.

https://herosports.com/nfl/list-of-players-protest-national-anthem-a7a7

[Nukem2]

Oh well...[/QUOTE]
Lol

[Markedman]

Maybe after 11 pages it might be time to move on? Seems like most of the players are.....https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/914540688003526656

Just a thought