21st Century All-MU Teams

[Phantom Warrior]

Looking back on all MU players who played on any MU team beginning with the 2000-2001 season, I tried to put together a first-team, second team, and third team by position. The only requirement was that a player must have completed his college career at MU, even if he did not begin at MU. Here's what I came up with along with some thoughts.

First Team:

Point Guard - Dominic James (This was a close contest between DJ and Travis. Travis was a better shooter and scorer, but DJ was a superior defender, maybe the best on-ball defender we've had at MU this century.)

2-Guard - Dwyane Wade (This was a no-brainer.)

Small Forward - Jimmy Butler (Another close contest between Jimmy B. and Wes with a slight edge to J.B.)

Power Forward - Jae Crowder (This was a pretty tight contest between Jae and Steve N., but Jae was, after all, BE POY and made second team A-A as a senior.)

Center - Davante Gardner (DG was our only 5 during this era to earn all-conference recognition.)

Second Team:

Point Guard - Travis Diener (TD as much as any MU player this century personified the concept of "Warrior." The fact that he played in the NBA for five years despite being 5'11" tells you all you need to know about his skill level, his smarts, and his heart.)

2-Guard - Jerel McNeal (D. Wade made first team A-A, but Jerel made second team his senior year. He improved every year and averaged just shade under 20.0 ppg as a senior.)

Small Forward - Wes Matthews (Wes came out of D.J.'s and Jerel's shadows his senior year, and he, too, made all-BE during his career at MU.)

Power Forward - Steve Novak (S.N. made all-BE as a senior and was the best shooter MU has had this century, maybe ever. Plus there was that monster game against UConn in his first BE game that made a huge statement about MU in the BE.)

Center - Scott Merrit (To me, S.M. was under-appreciated by many MU fans, but he had a solid career at MU and was willing to be that third or fourth offensive option and play solid defense and grab boards. Quite simply, while Wade, Diener, and RJax got most of the publicity, we don't get to the Final Four without S.M.)

Third Team:

Point Guard - Cordell Henry (Cordell improved substantially each year. He diversified his offensive game, including his shooting, and became a respectable defender, despite his height. I picked him ahead of Junior Cadougan because he was a key factor in helping the program reach the next level.)

2-Guard - Darius Johnson-Odom (I almost went with Vander Blue, but DJ-O, over his three years at MU was more productive than Vander was. Vander had one really solid year; DJ-O had three. I also picked him ahead of Brian Wardle, though that was really close. B.W. pretty much had to carry his teams offensively, while DJ-O had other strong offensive players alongside him, but DJ-O did make all-BE his senior season.)

Small Forward - Lazar Hayward (I know. Lazar played power forward his three years with the Amigos and even played center as a senior, but I could not imagine L.H. not earning a spot on one of the three teams. Plus, he, too, made all-BE during his career, and, according to some reports, was the toughest SOB at MU in the past 15-20 years.)

Power Forward - Henry Ellenson (I picked Henry over RJax, but it was close. H.E., did after all make first team all-BE in his only season at MU. Plus, he led the conference in rebounding at almost 10 rpg, which is pretty extraordinary. But he was only at MU for one year, and his defense left a great deal to be desired despite his shot-blocking ability. RJax, of course, also played for only one year at MU, but he was key in that team's Final Four run. Lazar had a better career at the 4 than either Henry or RJax, but I was able to slide him in at the 3.)

Center - Luke Fisher (I thought about putting Luke ahead of Merrit. It was kind of a push for me - six of one, half dozen of the other. I guess the tie-breaker was Scott playing for four years while Luke played two and a half years.)

Others who received at least some consideration:

Vander Blue, Brian Wardle, Robert Jackson, Dwight Buycks, Junior Cadougan, Jamil Wilson, Matt Carlino

It will be interesting to see what these teams might look like after the 2019-2020 season.

I'm sure others will take issue with some of my "selections," but that's what these boards are for, right? And, it is, after all, a slow season.

[TheSultan]

1st: Diener, Wade, Butler, Crowder, Jackson (How can you not have him on your top three teams?)
2nd: James, McNeal, Matthews, Novak, Gardner
3rd: Henry, DJO, Hayward, Ellenson, Merritt

Sam Hauser and Markus Howard could replace Henry and Henry after this year.

[Gato78]

Hard to leave 41 and 16; Missouri OT; and, ND game winner et al off 1st team. Still mentally debating him vs Crowder.

[TheSultan]

Hard to leave 41 and 16; Missouri OT; and, ND game winner et al off 1st team. Still mentally debating him vs Crowder.

BE player of the year. But it is an interesting argument to make.

[Markedman]

Sultans team is pretty close to mine.

Not sure about Merritt or Luke.....

[warriorfan4life]

First Team: Diener, Wade, Novak, Crowder, Zar (embracing positionless basketball)
Second Team: James, McNeal, Matthews, Butler, Jackson
Third Team: Howard (early days, but just love that shooting too much), DJ-O, Wardle, Ellenson, Gardner

Hauser should be on one of these pretty soon. Cordell is unlucky to be at our most stacked position. Also, I came super close to throwing Reinhardt on that third team (instead of Wardle). Only one year, but he was really good once he got healthy and comfortable playing with everyone.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

First Team

PG - Travis Diener: James was better defensively but Diener was by far the best offensive PG of the advanced stats era. But it's more about what Marquette did after injuries that swayed my decision*.
SG - Dwyane Wade: The best player of the century, and the best I've ever seen at Marquette. Easy choice.
SF - Jimmy Butler: Tough call to edge out Wes Matthews, but Jimmy's lock-down defensive ability as a senior is the separator.
PF - Jae Crowder: Second best player after Wade. Undersized, but an absolute beast and pure winner who did it all, sometimes by sheer force of will.
C - Robert Jackson: In one year, he separated himself from the pack. Stout defending the post, and a terror offensively. We likely don't beat Kentucky without Jackson.

Second Team

PG - Dominic James: Great two-way player, but his shooting woes hurt his case.
SG - Jerel McNeal: Overrated defender because of his anticipation for steals, but still a great player. Can't ignore the all-time scoring king.
SF - Wesley Matthews: Such a complete player, culminating in his senior year when he was an absolute stud.
PF - Lazar Hayward: Edges out Novak because of his rebounding and defense. Steve was a better shooter, Lazar was a better everything else.
C - Luke Fischer: Great shot blocker, shot maker & offensive rebounder. His worst eFG% was better than Gardner's best. Not a great defender, but also not the worst.

Third Team

PG - Maurice Acker: Tough call with Howard, but Mo was a better distributor & ball protector. As good as Lazar was, Mo was the one that made the Midgets team go.
SG - Darius Johnson-Odom: DJO's consistency carries him over Blue's great year. Better defender than he was credited & one of those guys you want taking the big shot.
SF - Steve Novak: He had the size of a PF, but his tendencies to launch threes (72.2% of his FGAs were from three) made him more of a wing than inside player.
PF - Henry Ellenson: He put up beastly numbers on a team that often felt like Henry & four other guys. I can't imagine what his rebounding numbers would've looked like after four years.
C - Davante Gardner: I could see an argument for Scott Merritt, especially defensively, but Gardner was simply magical on offense. He was spellbinding to watch, with more scoring tricks than any 300-lb man should have.

*The toughest call for me was Diener over James, but it came down to their injury seasons. Diener had two injured stints in 2005. Marquette went 1-7 during that time, including 4 losses to non-NCAA teams (they only lost 5 games to non-tourney teams all year). Without Diener, that team was dead in the water. Meanwhile, in 2009, when James went down, Acker was a clear step down, but Marquette was more competitive. Despite going 2-6, all 6 losses were to top-16 teams per Pomeroy. Without Diener, Marquette completely fell apart, and without James, they went from being a top-10 team to a still-very-good team.

Honorable Mentions: Brian Wardle, Cordell Henry, Vander Blue, Matt Carlino, Jajuan Johnson, Katin Reinhardt, Sam Hauser, Markus Howard

[Nukem2]

First Team

PG - Travis Diener: James was better defensively but Diener was by far the best offensive PG of the advanced stats era. But it's more about what Marquette did after injuries that swayed my decision*.
SG - Dwyane Wade: The best player of the century, and the best I've ever seen at Marquette. Easy choice.
SF - Jimmy Butler: Tough call to edge out Wes Matthews, but Jimmy's lock-down defensive ability as a senior is the separator.
PF - Jae Crowder: Second best player after Wade. Undersized, but an absolute beast and pure winner who did it all, sometimes by sheer force of will.
C - Robert Jackson: In one year, he separated himself from the pack. Stout defending the post, and a terror offensively. We likely don't beat Kentucky without Jackson.

Second Team

PG - Dominic James: Great two-way player, but his shooting woes hurt his case.
SG - Jerel McNeal: Overrated defender because of his anticipation for steals, but still a great player. Can't ignore the all-time scoring king.
SF - Wesley Matthews: Such a complete player, culminating in his senior year when he was an absolute stud.
PF - Lazar Hayward: Edges out Novak because of his rebounding and defense. Steve was a better shooter, Lazar was a better everything else.
C - Luke Fischer: Great shot blocker, shot maker & offensive rebounder. His worst eFG% was better than Gardner's best. Not a great defender, but also not the worst.

Third Team

PG - Maurice Acker: Tough call with Howard, but Mo was a better distributor & ball protector. As good as Lazar was, Mo was the one that made the Midgets team go.
SG - Darius Johnson-Odom: DJO's consistency carries him over Blue's great year. Better defender than he was credited & one of those guys you want taking the big shot.
SF - Steve Novak: He had the size of a PF, but his tendencies to launch threes (72.2% of his FGAs were from three) made him more of a cwing than inside player.
PF - Henry Ellenson: He put up beastly numbers on a team that often felt like Henry & four other guys. I can't imagine what his rebounding numbers would've looked like after four years.
C - Davante Gardner: I could see an argument for Scott Merritt, especially defensively, but Gardner was simply magical on offense. He was spellbinding to watch, with more scoring tricks than any 300-lb man should have.

*The toughest call for me was Diener over James, but it came down to their injury seasons. Diener had two injured stints in 2005. Marquette went 1-7 during that time, including 4 losses to non-NCAA teams (they only lost 5 games to non-tourney teams all year). Without Diener, that team was dead in the water. Meanwhile, in 2009, when James went down, Acker was a clear step down, but Marquette was more competitive. Despite going 2-6, all 6 losses were to top-16 teams per Pomeroy. Without Diener, Marquette completely fell apart, and without James, they went from being a top-10 team to a still-very-good team.

Honorable Mentions: Brian Wardle, Cordell Henry, Vander Blue, Matt Carlino, Jajuan Johnson, Katin Reinhardt, Sam Hauser, Markus HowardI would add Junior Cadougan to the honorable mentions. Certainly had his flaws, but he was the heart and soul of Buzz's team during his years at MU. Can remember the awards dinner after his injury marred frosh season when Lazar gave his award to Junior. It was memorable. Junior was just a winner.

[CaribouJim]

I would add Junior Cadougan to the honorable mentions. Certainly had his flaws, but he was the heart and soul of Buzz's team during his years at MU. Can remember the awards dinner after his injury marred frosh season when Lazar gave his award to Junior. It was memorable. Junior was just a winner.

7-3 NCAA tourney record with Junior at the helm. Only wish he red shirted his freshman year after the injury.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

I would add Junior Cadougan to the honorable mentions. Certainly had his flaws, but he was the heart and soul of Buzz's team during his years at MU. Can remember the awards dinner after his injury marred frosh season when Lazar gave his award to Junior. It was memorable. Junior was just a winner.

Junior played on winning teams, which isn't the same thing. He was a below average, slow footed defender and poor shooter. At best the sixth best point guard this century, and that may be generous.

[CaribouJim]

Junior played on winning teams, which isn't the same thing. He was a below average, slow footed defender and poor shooter. At best the sixth best point guard this century, and that may be generous.

...and your opinion. Your utter dislike for Junior is well noted. It was no coincidence that DG's production and the team in general dropped significantly the season after he left.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

...and your opinion. Your utter dislike for Junior is well noted. It was no coincidence that DG's production and the team in general dropped significantly the season after he left.

It's my list, so yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm entitled to that.

Though his poor shooting and defensive deficiencies were much discussed while he was here, so I'm not sure how that's just opinion. And I'd unquestionably take Diener, James, Acker, Henry, Howard, and Rowsey over him. Probably Buycks too, since despite not being a true PG, Junior couldn't beat him out. Cubillan as well maybe?

Junior is a top-10 point guard of the last 18 years at Marquette. That's about it. Say whatever you want about the team's dip in production when he left, any of the teams he was on would've been better with the guys listed above, and 2014 would've been better with them than had Junior been around another year.

[Phantom Warrior]

Come on, Brewcity,

Probably Buycks because Junior couldn't beat him out? I can't believe you said that.

In 2009-2010 Junior was injured and probably should not have played at all while Buycks was a junior. How did DB play as a junior? Not very productive - 6.4 ppg and 2.1 apg in 23.6 mpg and shot 27.3% from behind the arc. And shooting/scoring were what he was supposed to do best.

In 2010-2011, Junior was, for all intents and purposes, a red-shirt freshman while DB was a senior with three years of college ball behind him. Junior was still to back to 100%. D.B.'s senior season was a whole lot better than his junior season.

Still, compare Junior's senior season to Dwight's. Junior averaged 8.5 ppg and 3.8 apg in 28.1 mpg and shots 43.1% from the field. Dwight averaged 8.8 pg and 3.4 apg in 28.1 mpg and shot 46.1 % from the field as our starting point guard. Pretty much a wash.

But those are just stats. There are also intangibles, like leadership, like running an offense, like getting the ball to the right person in exactly the right place at the right time. Many fans did not appreciate the subtle contributions Junior made. You, apparently, are one of them.

As far as Mo versus Junior, I think Junior's three year career (not including frosh season) was, overall, better than Mo's even though Mo shot lights out as a senior.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Jeez...leave St. Junior off your list and suddenly everyone has to come out to defend the guy who couldn't shoot or defend while turning it over far too much. We've had this conversation 100 times before, yet somehow people want to have it again.

In the Pomeroy era, Marquette has four seasons where the starting point guard didn't have a 100+ Offensive rating. Two of those belong to Junior (the others are Derrick). Junior gets a pass for his first two years because he "wasn't ready". That's half his damn career. Bad decisions to not redshirt, inability to beat out a SG for his own position, we'll throw that out the window because...umm...next question.

If someone prefers him to Buycks, who also wasn't a very good point guard until after he left here, I guess that's your prerogative. But putting him on par with Diener, James, Acker, or Henry is just laughable. Acker's senior season was heads and tails better than anything Junior did here. Not even remotely comparable. And I don't think he was close to either of our point guards now.

If someone wants to figure out where Junior ranks in regards to Cubillan, Buycks, and Derrick Wilson, I guess that's their prerogative. But he's not in the top-6 in this century and he's not close to being good enough to be honorable mention on my list.

[TheSultan]

Jeez...leave St. Junior off your list and suddenly everyone has to come out to defend the guy who couldn't shoot or defend while turning it over far too much. We've had this conversation 100 times before, yet somehow people want to have it again.

In the Pomeroy era, Marquette has four seasons where the starting point guard didn't have a 100+ Offensive rating. Two of those belong to Junior (the others are Derrick). Junior gets a pass for his first two years because he "wasn't ready". That's half his damn career. Bad decisions to not redshirt, inability to beat out a SG for his own position, we'll throw that out the window because...umm...next question.

If someone prefers him to Buycks, who also wasn't a very good point guard until after he left here, I guess that's your prerogative. But putting him on par with Diener, James, Acker, or Henry is just laughable. Acker's senior season was heads and tails better than anything Junior did here. Not even remotely comparable. And I don't think he was close to either of our point guards now.

If someone wants to figure out where Junior ranks in regards to Cubillan, Buycks, and Derrick Wilson, I guess that's their prerogative. But he's not in the top-6 in this century and he's not close to being good enough to be honorable mention on my list.


Well stated. I thought Junior was the weakest link on the S16 and E8 teams his junior and senior years. He was consistently getting exploited defensively, and his inability to stretch defenses was a problem. People are overrating him because they won. But those teams would have been better with Acker, Henry, James and Diener as PG.

[Phantom Warrior]

I didn't put him on a par with Travis, D.J., or Henry, which is why I list those three ahead of Junior. By the way, Cordell was not all that good his first two years either. I give you Mo's senior season versus Junior's, but other than his senior year Mo was basically not much of a factor. In fact, he barely played at all second semester junior year as Buzz pretty much exiled him to the bench.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Buzz exiled him because, like Cooby, he was trying to run them off the team and has admitted as much.

The thing with guys like Junior is it's all intangibles. He was a great effort guy, but no one questioned the effort of Travis, Dom, Acker, Henry, or currently Howard or Rowsey. Those guys had intangibles and production. Junior only had intangibles, and some of those (specifically defense) were bad.

Junior was a fine point guard if he was your backup. For us, he started for two years and was the weakest link. Look at his senior year contemporaries in the Big East. Peyton Siva, Markel Starks, Trayvon Woodall, Michael Carter-Williams, Jerian Grant, Shabazz Napier, Cashmere Wright, Vincent Council, Myles Mack, and Brandon Young were all ahead of Junior.

He's at best 7th at Marquette this century and wasn't top-10 in the league as a senior. I don't know why people get so defensive when he is brought up (and I didn't bring him up). He was just a guy.

[IWB]

Buzz exiled him because, like Cooby, he was trying to run them off the team and has admitted as much.

There may have been some pretty good reasons for that.

[TheSultan]

Buzz exiled him because, like Cooby, he was trying to run them off the team and has admitted as much.

The thing with guys like Junior is it's all intangibles. He was a great effort guy, but no one questioned the effort of Travis, Dom, Acker, Henry, or currently Howard or Rowsey. Those guys had intangibles and production. Junior only had intangibles, and some of those (specifically defense) were bad.

Junior was a fine point guard if he was your backup. For us, he started for two years and was the weakest link. Look at his senior year contemporaries in the Big East. Peyton Siva, Markel Starks, Trayvon Woodall, Michael Carter-Williams, Jerian Grant, Shabazz Napier, Cashmere Wright, Vincent Council, Myles Mack, and Brandon Young were all ahead of Junior.

He's at best 7th at Marquette this century and wasn't top-10 in the league as a senior. I don't know why people get so defensive when he is brought up (and I didn't bring him up). He was just a guy.



I think people have a thing for "pure point guards." Especially on teams that win. However I don't think Junior was even all that good in that regard.

Look at Mo Acker's senior year. Assist percentage of 24.6. Turnover percentage of 13.8. Junior's were 28.3 and 22.5. And don't give me intangibles when Junior was suspended twice his junior year causing him to miss the UW game and half of the WVU game.

[MUAlphaBangura]

Where does Junior's defense ability compared to Mo's defense come into play?

[Nukem2]

Junior, with all of his many flaws, was simply the straw that stirred the drink. Just what it was. Right guy at the right time for the right coach.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

As Caribou said, my feelings about Junior are well documented. He was a below average point guard and one of the worst to start for Marquette. I know it, many simply won't accept it. Why people want to have this discussion again, I have no idea. There are literally over a dozen other players we can discuss with comments that haven't already been rehashed in numerous other threads. But if anything sums up why Junior wasn't good, it is this...


Junior, with all of his many flaws, was simply the straw that stirred the drink. Just what it was. Right guy at the right time for the right coach.

Basically, this reads "Junior may have been crap, but he was on a good team." The guy had very few redeeming qualities on the court, but he was charismatic and played on successful teams. He wasn't the reason for that success, but he didn't stand in the way of it, so people laud him. And he was followed by the much-maligned Derrick Wilson, so he's remembered more fondly because of the success we had before Derrick took over. I mean, look at the comments from the people that are trying to argue in his favor:


Certainly had his flaws...


It was no coincidence that DG's production and the team in general dropped significantly the season after he left.


But those are just stats. There are also intangibles, like leadership, like running an offense, like getting the ball to the right person in exactly the right place at the right time.


Where does Junior's defense ability compared to Mo's defense come into play?


Junior, with all of his many flaws, was simply the straw that stirred the drink.

Do you guys realize that none of that actually compliments Junior? He had flaws, he was only good because of the people around him, he didn't produce but had "intangibles", his defense sucked, and more about flaws. You know what I don't see? Any compelling arguments as to why he is worth being a top-6 PG at Marquette this century. Any compelling argument as to why he was actually a top-10 PG in the conference his senior year.

He didn't produce, he didn't play good defense, and every starting point guard getting mentions here had as good or better intangibles than Junior. But please, let's talk more about how he was a "winner", or "the straw that stirred the drink", or any other trite cliche that completely ignores the simple reality that Marquette would've been better in the years Junior started with almost anyone else this century playing there.

And as far as defense, which again, comparing Junior's poor defense to Acker's poor defense is NOT a compliment to Junior, what Acker brought as a total package was simply far above what Junior brought. Similarly, Markus Howard isn't a great defender. He's still already a better player now than Junior was as a senior. Guys, pointing out other's deficiencies does not elevate Junior.

Now can we move on to talking about any other of the numerous points raised in this thread, or do you all want to keep damning Junior with faint praise that only reveals what you all secretly know but refuse to admit, he wasn't a very good player.

[TheSultan]

Especially "running the offense" and "getting the ball to the right guy at the right time." Statistically, he struggled with those things. Turned the ball over way too much.

I mean, even with the "eye test" he wasn't really all that great so I have no idea what people are seeing here.

[Nukem2]

Especially "running the offense" and "getting the ball to the right guy at the right time." Statistically, he struggled with those things. Turned the ball over way too much.

I mean, even with the "eye test" he wasn't really all that great so I have no idea what people are seeing here.
Sorry, but he was the guy that figured out to get the ball to Davante. Numbers are meaningless. He just made things happen.

[TheSultan]

Sorry, but he was the guy that figured out to get the ball to Davante. You guys are ignorant.

I mean, was that something no other PG could do? I mean, Junior did do that. So did Derrick Wilson. They had similar assist rates with the same players around them but Junior turned it over more.

Really Nukem you calling someone ignorant, when you show a continued willful ignorance of statistics, is rich. Look Junior was just a guy. Not a bad player, but hardly more than a decent one.

[Nukem2]

I mean, was that something no other PG could do? I mean, Junior did do that. So did Derrick Wilson. They had similar assist rates with the same players around them but Junior turned it over more.

Really Nukem you calling someone ignorant, when you show a continued willful ignorance of statistics, is rich. Look Junior was just a guy. Not a bad player, but hardly more than a decent one.
But but, Derrick had nothing other than beating up on an injured Jordan Taylor when the rules were different. Junior really did make a difference. Sometimes stats are meaningless. Just what it is buddy.

[Nukem2]

I mean, was that something no other PG could do? I mean, Junior did do that. So did Derrick Wilson. They had similar assist rates with the same players around them but Junior turned it over more.

Really Nukem you calling someone ignorant, when you show a continued willful ignorance of statistics, is rich. Look Junior was just a guy. Not a bad player, but hardly more than a decent one.
Part 2, let's use a football example. Fran Tarkenton had great numbers but did zilch for the Vikings. Joe Kapp had horrible numbers but made the Vikes good. Stats do not represent not the whole story!!

[TheSultan]

But but, Derrick had nothing other than beating up on an injured Jordan Taylor when the rules were different. Junior really did make a difference. Sometimes stats are meaningless. Just what it is buddy.

I never said Derrick was better than Junior. Junior just wasn't as good as you think he is. You could put a handful of 21st Century PGs in his place on those teams and they would be better off.

[Nukem2]

I never said Derrick was better than Junior. Junior just wasn't as good as you think he is. You could put a handful of 21st Century PGs in his place on those teams and they would be better off.
We will just disagree. Junior was just the right guy and Buzz knew it as well despite that Badger game and that bar incident that aJunior was part of. As I noted earlier, Lazar and their teammates knew him well. You can disagree, but that's you. Have a good eve.

[TheSultan]

Part 2, let's use a football example. Fran Tarkenton had great numbers but did zilch for the Vikings. Joe Kapp had horrible numbers but made the Vikes good. Stats do not represent not the whole story!!


Tarkenton lead the Vikings to six division titles, three Super Bowls and is in the NFL Hall of Fame. Kapp lead them to one Super Bowl, and they dumped him as soon as they could get the Giants to trade Tarkenton back.

Really this is a bad sports statement and should teach you a couple valuable lessons. First, your brain misremembers things. Second, it misremembers them more often when you are bringing up examples from 45 years ago.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

We will just disagree. Junior was just the right guy and Buzz knew it as well despite that Badger game and that bar incident that aJunior was part of. As I noted earlier, Lazar and their teammates knew him well. You can disagree, but that's you. Have a good eve.

And none of this makes Junior better than Diener, James, Henry, Acker, Howard, or Rowsey, which is the whole point. None of it made him a top-10 Big East point guard as a senior. As no one is debating that.

Your inability to actually delineate his quality in comparison to his contemporaries is damning, not complimentary. The most compelling argument against Junior is your own inability to justify a higher rating than 7th this century at Marquette or 11th in the Big East as a senior (which could be 13th, Ryan Arcidiacono and Aaron Cosby had comparable seasons to Junior)

Seriously, what is your obsession with arguing the at best 7th best point guard at Marquette this century?

[Nukem2]

Whatever, Junior was a HUGE part of a very successful era of MU BB. Good night,

[Nukem2]

Tarkenton lead the Vikings to six division titles, three Super Bowls and is in the NFL Hall of Fame. Kapp lead them to one Super Bowl, and they dumped him as soon as they could get the Giants to trade Tarkenton back.

Really this is a bad sports statement and should teach you a couple valuable lessons. First, your brain misremembers things. Second, it misremembers them more often when you are bringing up examples from 45 years ago.

Point though is that Kapp also brought the Vikes to the SB though he was less obviously less talented. ;)

[TheSultan]

Point though is that Kapp also brought the Vikes to the SB though he was less obviously less talented. ;)


Well that wasn't your original point. You said "Fran Tarkenton had great numbers but did zilch for the Vikings." Which is false.

[Nukem2]

Well that wasn't your original point. You said "Fran Tarkenton had great numbers but did zilch for the Vikings." Which is false.

Whatever. I'm not not writing a tome here. In any event, a less talented Kapp did. what Fran could do. Bottom line is getting back to the point here, that Junior was not all that bad. I would like to have a Junior this year! And, yes, feel free to disagree. Good bye.

Ps, my iPad is really screwing up my postin.!

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Whatever, Junior was a HUGE part of a very successful era of MU BB. Good night,

Since you didn't debate the points, I'll take that as an acknowledgement that I'm right. Now that this debate is done, how about 6 topics raised in here that are more interesting than whether Junior is the 7th or 9th best PG of this century?

1) Travis Diener v Dominic James as the top PG. Travis was better offensively but Dom was an excellent defender.

2) Jimmy Butler v Wes Matthews. Both had great senior years and went on to NBA success. Wes had the overall numbers, but Jimmy led a Sweet 16 team.

3) For Phantom, how does Robert Jackson not make the top-3 teams? Despite one year, he was clearly (in my eyes) our best two way center.

4) How surprisingly loaded were we at PF? Lazar, Jae, Henry, Steve, all NBA draft picks and all conference players.

5) Is defense ignored? Many one-dimensional offensive players make these lists while defensive specialists like Otule, Derrick, Burke are ignored (including by me). Do those guys deserve more credit?

6) Best one-year player? Jackson, Carlino, Reinhardt, Lockett?

[CaribouJim]

I mean, was that something no other PG could do? I mean, Junior did do that. So did Derrick Wilson. They had similar assist rates with the same players around them but Junior turned it over more.

Really Nukem you calling someone ignorant, when you show a continued willful ignorance of statistics, is rich. Look Junior was just a guy. Not a bad player, but hardly more than a decent one.

Not the case - at least not with the consistency of Junior - DW went multiple games as starter where he did not feed Davante or anyone else in the post for that matter. Junior and Davante clicked from day one and Derrick did not. As far as the myth of DW "taking care of the ball" with his low T/O's that happens when you don't put yourself in harm's way...dribble slowly up the court - pass to the left from the top of the key - get the ball back and pass to the right key - nothing ventured, nothing gained. Compare that to Junior, especially in his senior year...that "slow footed" guy was always probing and often putting the pedal to the metal pushing it up court from different angles if he saw an opportunity for at the other end of the court - whether for him or a teammate. Not letting the defense set up and getting a breather - not letting them get comfortable. And that slow footed guy got us the court quick enough to get off a 30 foot jumper to send MU into OT and an eventual win against UCONN. Not to mention that he was reliable at the line. I've got nothing against Derrick - we all know that he is a good kid, but he was not "interchangeable" with Junior - not even close IMO as you've said in the past.

The '11, '12, '13 seasons are more than arguably the best sustained run MU had since Al's era, going to 7-3 in the NCAA's not to mention 37-17 in Big East play including 28-8 the last two years. When it gets down to it yours and Brew's premise is that MU did this in spite of Junior and not because of any of his "tangible" contributions. It may have been only a two year run if not for the following in a Big East tourney game in '11: "Junior Cadougan, a sophomore from Toronto who had 15 points, was the catalyst in the second half, and continued to emerge as a decision maker in the open court. His frequent forays into the heart of the West Virginia defense earned him trips to the free throw line, where he finished 7-for-9 on the night."

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

So Junior had one good game and you crown him? Duane Wilson once scored 30, I don't see him on anyone's list. Or "reliable at the line"? Junior was a bad shooter and that included at the line. 71.4% as a senior and that was his only season over 70%. Every season he played, Junior brought the team FT% down. We went 7-3 in the postseason in spite of him, not because of him.

But again, who really cares if he's the 7th, 8th, 9th, or 10th (easily debatable as Carlino arrived as a PG) best point this century? This topic is boring and has already been discussed ad nauseum.

[TheSultan]

Not the case - at least not with the consistency of Junior - DW went multiple games as starter where he did not feed Davante or anyone else in the post for that matter. Junior and Davante clicked from day one and Derrick did not. As far as the myth of DW "taking care of the ball" with his low T/O's that happens when you don't put yourself in harm's way...dribble slowly up the court - pass to the left from the top of the key - get the ball back and pass to the right key - nothing ventured, nothing gained. Compare that to Junior, especially in his senior year...that "slow footed" guy was always probing and often putting the pedal to the metal pushing it up court from different angles if he saw an opportunity for at the other end of the court - whether for him or a teammate. Not letting the defense set up and getting a breather - not letting them get comfortable. And that slow footed guy got us the court quick enough to get off a 30 foot jumper to send MU into OT and an eventual win against UCONN. Not to mention that he was reliable at the line. I've got nothing against Derrick - we all know that he is a good kid, but he was not "interchangeable" with Junior - not even close IMO as you've said in the past.

The '11, '12, '13 seasons are more than arguably the best sustained run MU had since Al's era, going to 7-3 in the NCAA's not to mention 37-17 in Big East play including 28-8 the last two years. When it gets down to it yours and Brew's premise is that MU did this in spite of Junior and not because of any of his "tangible" contributions. It may have been only a two year run if not for the following in a Big East tourney game in '11: "Junior Cadougan, a sophomore from Toronto who had 15 points, was the catalyst in the second half, and continued to emerge as a decision maker in the open court. His frequent forays into the heart of the West Virginia defense earned him trips to the free throw line, where he finished 7-for-9 on the night."


Yes. Junior had a few good games.

And I'm sorry but I am not basing my statement on A/TO ratio. I am basing it on assist percentages and turnover percentages, which are the number of assists and turnovers that players make over the course of 100 possessions.

Junior's career: 29.3 / 25.7 Derrick's: 24.4 / 20.9

So while Junior did average about 3 and a half more assists per 100 possessions, he also averaged about 3 and a half more turnovers. So yeah, did Junior "push it" more often? Sure. But it didn't result in anything much better in the end.

I'd take Junior over Derrick. But of the PGs since 2000, Junior would be way down on my list and IMO the teams his junior and senior years would have been much better with a number of the PGs mentioned above.

[MUAlphaBangura]

Since you didn't debate the points, I'll take that as an acknowledgement that I'm right. Now that this debate is done, how about 6 topics raised in here that are more interesting than whether Junior is the 7th or 9th best PG of this century?

1) Travis Diener v Dominic James as the top PG. Travis was better offensively but Dom was an excellent defender.

2) Jimmy Butler v Wes Matthews. Both had great senior years and went on to NBA success. Wes had the overall numbers, but Jimmy led a Sweet 16 team.

3) For Phantom, how does Robert Jackson not make the top-3 teams? Despite one year, he was clearly (in my eyes) our best two way center.

4) How surprisingly loaded were we at PF? Lazar, Jae, Henry, Steve, all NBA draft picks and all conference players.

5) Is defense ignored? Many one-dimensional offensive players make these lists while defensive specialists like Otule, Derrick, Burke are ignored (including by me). Do those guys deserve more credit?

6) Best one-year player? Jackson, Carlino, Reinhardt, Lockett?


Wait.... who's obsessed????:cool::cool:

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Wait.... who's obsessed????:cool::cool:

This may be tongue in cheek, but this was all Nukem. When he quoted my post that had NO MENTION of Junior, he was doing so to provoke a response. He did it deliberately, pure trolling. Make no mistake, this was intentional by Nukem and his intent from the start. And predictably, the same people came to Junior's defense, as always with no tangible evidence.

I defended my exclusion of him and laid down the twofold gauntlet of him not being top-6 at MU this century and not being top-10 in the league as a senior. No one got close to touching that gauntlet, yet continued to argue an indefensible position despite my repeated attempts to say we were beating a dead horse and repeated attempts suggesting we move on to more interesting topics.

[MUAlphaBangura]

This may be tongue in cheek, but this was all Nukem. When he quoted my post that had NO MENTION of Junior, he was doing so to provoke a response. He did it deliberately, pure trolling. Make no mistake, this was intentional by Nukem and his intent from the start. And predictably, the same people came to Junior's defense, as always with no tangible evidence.

I defended my exclusion of him and laid down the twofold gauntlet of him not being top-6 at MU this century and not being top-10 in the league as a senior. No one got close to touching that gauntlet, yet continued to argue an indefensible position despite my repeated attempts to say we were beating a dead horse and repeated attempts suggesting we move on to more interesting topics.

It was tongue in cheek but the greater point to me is it's just not that big a deal to ride somebody so hard for their opinion. It's their opinion. Too much "I need to prove you wrong" BS at times on this board and we are all guilty of it.

[TheSultan]

It was tongue in cheek but the greater point to me is it's just not that big a deal to ride somebody so hard for their opinion. It's their opinion. Too much "I need to prove you wrong" BS at times on this board and we are all guilty of it.


If Nukem feels he is being rided so hard, he can stop responding. I mean, he literally said "good bye" or the equivalent three times last evening...yet kept responding.

It's a message board. That's what it's for.

[MUMac]

It was tongue in cheek but the greater point to me is it's just not that big a deal to ride somebody so hard for their opinion. It's their opinion. Too much "I need to prove you wrong" BS at times on this board and we are all guilty of it.

Agree completely. This thread was best locked. It has deteriorated. Everyone has an opinion on who is the better player. A coach may prefer a JC to a DJ, while another may prefer DJ to JC. Supporting why you like that player is fine, but the venomous retorts about that opinion are infantile debate tactics.

A worthy thread has dissolved.

[TheSultan]

Who was venomous? I mean at worse Nukem called me "ignorant," which to his credit he edited. But I didn't take offense.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Agree completely. This thread was best locked. It has deteriorated. Everyone has an opinion on who is the better player. A coach may prefer a JC to a DJ, while another may prefer DJ to JC. Supporting why you like that player is fine, but the venomous retorts about that opinion are infantile debate tactics.

A worthy thread has dissolved.

If a worthy thread has dissolved, it's because people are refusing to continue the discussion. The lock was an accident, Jim said as much. It wasn't venomous unless someone here has gossamer skin.

Talk about Travis and James HERE. Talk about any of the other viable arguments here.

Here's mine. So there are plenty of fairly one-dimensional offensive players getting mentions. Diener, Gardner, Acker, and others with lackluster defense get some acclaim despite it maybe sometimes feeling like we were playing 4-on-5 on defense when they were on the court. So what about the defensive standouts that were offensive voids? Should players like Dwight Burke, Marcus Jackson, Chris Otule, and Vander Blue get more recognition because of what they did on the defensive end?

Obviously Van had the one big offensive year, but he was a stellar defender and played starter minutes all three years here. Otule is interesting because he was fairly efficient on offense despite a relatively low usage. He was also a consistent rim protector. The downside for him is that with Gardner, his minutes were limited. I wonder if we hadn't had Davante if Chris might have been a 10 ppg/8 rpg/3 bpg type of guy and if that would earn him some consideration.